How do you make resources move with more integrity in a transactional society with Amber Theurer

[00:00:00] Anne V Mühlethaler: Ambi. I am so happy to see you. Me too. Hello. Welcome. Welcome. For the first ever Metta Interview, so for our listeners, Ambi and I have known each other for how many months now?

[00:00:15] Anne V Mühlethaler: Two months. Three months. Three months probably. Was it more? I think three time is moving fast, if not more. It's June already. Oh yeah, it's June. Yeah. March. Yeah. My, my calendar has you on the, yeah. And so we met thanks to. The community, the alumni community from a course called Write of Passage, and we were both in the last cohort, cohort 13.

[00:00:42] Anne V Mühlethaler: And one day I saw, uh, Amber put something in there saying that she was hosting slow sessions. And I was like, oh, that speaks to me. And then lo and behold, a week or two later, we were on a very long Zoom call together. I think we talked about 90 minutes the first time [00:01:00] we got on Zoom.

[00:01:01] Amber Theurer: Yes. It was definitely one of those just like the pull was pulling and we were just allowing it to pull.

[00:01:08] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah, absolutely. So before going any further, I would love to start our conversation by asking you what is bringing you joy and or excitement at the moment? And it doesn't have to be anything profound. It could be completely casual or mundane, but I, I thought we could start from a place of a, a high note.

[00:01:30] Amber Theurer: Hmm. Okay. It's a little bit of both mundane and profound. So, and you know this, but like I, a year and some change, like 14 months. I was living in Mexico City up until about a month ago, and prior to moving to Mexico City, I was living in New York for five years. And so I recently made the decision to move back to New York.

[00:01:57] Amber Theurer: And you can imagine like, [00:02:00] it's so, it's the most beautiful experience walking down streets that I've walked down like so, so, so many times feeling this new lens of not just appreciation, but noticing, like, have you ever had an experience in life where you're like, wait, why does, like these colors look more bright even though I've seen these colors like my whole life?

[00:02:22] Amber Theurer: You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And it's, I mean, there's simultaneously a decent amount of like grief in there too, because you're realizing. Things that no longer align from seasons of life that like very, very much like I started my first company here, my first serious relationship was here. Like all these things, right?

[00:02:41] Amber Theurer: But now that I've kind of come back with this very deep deepened sense of sovereignty and knowing it's, it's very easy to see what's just kind of faded and like what's taking the space. , so the short is like, it's such an [00:03:00] exciting experience because everything feels new and novel and there's a lot of ways to learn, even though I've been here for so long.

[00:03:09] Anne V Mühlethaler: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. That's

[00:03:12] Amber Theurer: beautiful.

[00:03:13] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. I'm so glad you shared that. I feel like I'm in a, maybe it's because of my a sustained mindfulness practice and also being a pet owner. Well, I. Oh no. Doesn't really work. A pet mom? Mm-hmm. Compan, I'm always companion a constant state of, I'm in a constant state of noticing and of delighting

[00:03:35] Anne V Mühlethaler: and also because it, having a dog, I have to walk through life at a different pace. 'cause he stops me all the time. So I guess I'm noticing in a way I've never noticed in my life

[00:03:48] Amber Theurer: totally. You know, speaking of dogs, I had been watching a friend's dog here. I don't know if I told you about this, but

[00:03:58] Anne V Mühlethaler: No,

[00:03:58] Amber Theurer: I have never [00:04:00] been like a super dog person.

[00:04:01] Amber Theurer: More because like, oh, that I remember. Yeah, and it's been this like whole journey of like coming to la I'm like, wait, oh my God, I get it. They're like a human's best friend. Like how did I not get the software update? You know what I mean? Like suddenly overnight I got the software update and I was watching this friend's dog for like a week or so.

[00:04:22] Amber Theurer: And what you said about like stopping and starting and being curious and just like, it's such reminder that there's no rush. It's almost comical, like when you have a dog walking with you because you're like, yes, oh yeah, I wanna look, I wanna chill too on the street. And like look around a little bit.

[00:04:41] Amber Theurer: Like, thank you Arlo. Thank you. You know?

[00:04:46] Anne V Mühlethaler: Uh, so I share that with some friends that my flatmate in London, Etain, . She walks the fastest of anyone I've ever met and like, keeping up with her on the streets of London, got me on a pace of walking really fast.[00:05:00]

[00:05:00] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. And this has been an unlearning of three years. 'cause my dog wants to stop , at every bush that we encounter. , very, very funny for you, , who runs slow sessions to find a slower pace when you walk in New York, that's just really, it's poetic even.

[00:05:16] Amber Theurer: Oh, totally. Talk about things that are exciting and mundane, like walking a dog like this is so, one of them, I've, I sounded crazy.

[00:05:24] Amber Theurer: Like everyone that I was talking to for a week, I was like, I need to let you in on something. Like, have you heard of dogs? Like, you know what I mean? It's so funny. It is. It is. But I totally agree with you. They're such teachers, the most divine teachers.

[00:05:39] Anne V Mühlethaler: Mm. Yeah. They really are. Now, I thought, before we go any further now, would you kindly introduce yourself to our audience in a few words?

[00:05:49] Anne V Mühlethaler: In any way you fancy

[00:05:50] Amber Theurer: I am Amber Thur. I would describe myself as an expert, people watcher and human [00:06:00] lover. I think those are the biggest threads in my extremely multifaceted career. , I like to describe my mission over the what I am on a mission in this lifetime to genuinely bridge the digital and physical, to create a more human world.

[00:06:16] Amber Theurer: Um, mm. I think we're trained to believe that our kind of. Why needs to fit in this extremely tight, , like buttoned up super well packaged neat box. , I'm someone who doesn't work well in , the typical, I don't know, , super neat boxes, but I have found a lot of support through like a loose container, like a fluid container, and that's the best one I've found.

[00:06:42] Amber Theurer: So, yeah.

[00:06:45] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's lovely because when you say that, you know what, that brings to me a fluid container. It makes me think of you floating being carried by water.

[00:06:56] Amber Theurer: Yes.

[00:06:57] Anne V Mühlethaler: Mm. How funny. Yeah. Like

[00:06:58] Amber Theurer: enough room for the [00:07:00] pull, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, yeah. Yeah. The current,

[00:07:06] Anne V Mühlethaler: so as you know, and , you were one of the few people whose conversations brought such richness to my thinking that.

[00:07:17] Anne V Mühlethaler: This is how I conceived the Metta Interview actually. Mm-hmm. Because, um, I want to shine more of a light on how multifaceted we all are and that's why I'd love to ask you this next, what would be an early experience in your life that you think planted the seed for the work that you do today? Hmm.

[00:07:42] Amber Theurer: This is a wonderful question and the immediate memory that comes to mind. We're gonna like unpack this together I think. Yeah. So I don't know if this like is a globally shown TV show, but it's called That's So Raven and she was a fashion designer, but she was also psychic. It was on [00:08:00] Disney Channel. It was like a super watch show with Raven Simone and.

[00:08:06] Amber Theurer: It was like so casually dropped in that she was like psychic on the show. Like, now that I'm thinking about it, she would have these like moments where she's like looking at the screen. I'm gonna send you the meme afterwards. Oh yes, please. There's like so many memes on this, but like, she was a fashion designer and she was in high school or something on a TV show, and I loved her because she would get these like, Intuits like from her world around her at, but, and she would then create like the zaniest stuff.

[00:08:31] Amber Theurer: Of course she would like navigate like interesting experiences as like a child TV show, like a pre-teen TV show. And I remember being so obsessed with her, but now as I look back, I think it was more of the way that she was interacting with her creativity in the world. Mm-hmm. So much so that like there was, when Toys'r'Us was still a thing, they had like a whole, that's a raven like line of.

[00:08:53] Amber Theurer: Children's, they were more like learning adjacent, like mm-hmm. , toys than, they were just like purely toys. So one of [00:09:00]them was a projector where there were different like slides where you could trace outfits and you could be like a little fashion designer. And so I remember being like so obsessed with the whole thing, how they made the these to, , these toys were so different than other toys that you would play with.

[00:09:18] Amber Theurer: And also by the time you're like 11 or 12, I was like right at the cusp of when tech was also arising. So I think I got my first phone in like sixth grade. Mm-hmm. , so I was still on the cusp of using physical toys and I felt like this was such a cool physical toy for ah, you know what I mean?

[00:09:36] Amber Theurer: That age group that would kind of age out of dolls, but then what else do you kind of work with? Yeah, yeah. Like drawing something like this. .And as I look back, I don't think I realized in the moment like, what a cool multifaceted projector for a 10-year-old. You know what I mean? Or like a 9-year-old.

[00:09:52] Amber Theurer: But now in hindsight, I think that I was very connected to her, her [00:10:00] freedom of expression and following her creativity. And again, I guess, of course this role of her being able to follow this, other pulse of like a power, like outside of her a little bit. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:10:13] Anne V Mühlethaler: Hmm. Okay. I wanna follow that thread.

[00:10:19] Amber Theurer: I'm like, me too. I haven't thought about this at all.

[00:10:23] Anne V Mühlethaler: What is the power that you're following? Hmm.

[00:10:28] Amber Theurer: I think I, if, if either of us could name it, it wouldn't, it wouldn't even do it justice. Hmm. I. It's so beyond words. And actually someone, I'm obsessed with this idea of the space in between words, especially in an automated world, right?

[00:10:50] Amber Theurer: Because as we interface with knowledge, a lot of it in its current deliveries through words, but only 7% of human communication actually [00:11:00] happens through words. Mm-hmm. The rest happens through like feelings, body language, energy, all the things that us woo folks have. Like kind of a, yeah, it's coming to like, you know, but, but truly, truly like it plays a role in so much of what we do.

[00:11:17] Amber Theurer: And I think, the question was, what pool are you following? I think I can genuinely only. I can see the thread of it in hindsight and why these small everyday decisions had this greater thread of connectivity and guidance. But what it looks like day to day is something as simple as , go to that coffee shop even though you have no reason to be in that neighborhood today.

[00:11:43] Amber Theurer: Some weird reason why you want to go there and then ending up sitting next to someone or running into someone or something like this. , That's what it looks like on the day to day. Sure. And the days that I'm not as connected to it, usually I feel it in my body more than anything else. Hmm. I don't, I [00:12:00] notice it's days when I'm like not spending time in the sun or not seeing other people.

[00:12:06] Amber Theurer: I feel closest to it when I am in the presence of other humans being in the sun. Laying in the park. These sound like really simple things, but, uh mm-hmm. After long journey of overcomplicating it. Mm-hmm. These are the conclusions of , ah, wow. Like when I sit in the sun, I feel like really , connected to something else.

[00:12:26] Amber Theurer: Or when I feel like the wind or Yeah. Hmm. That's, it's much more intuitive feeling.

[00:12:33] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. Yeah. You are, you're making me think about when does it happen with me and I'm not sure, so I'm gonna have to park that and think about it later.

[00:12:47] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:49] Anne V Mühlethaler: Now, related to that, but in another way, trying to get to how you became the person you are today, is there a childhood memory that you can tell us about that still [00:13:00] makes you smile?

[00:13:02] Amber Theurer: Yes. I come back to this so often. , so I really enjoyed doing. Chalk, like you like sidewalk chalk. Mm-hmm. We would literally call it do chalk. Like do you like all the kids? Mm-hmm. I lived in a neighborhood, like a proper neighborhood. Mm-hmm. Before it was a thing that we like, don't talk to our neighbors very much.

[00:13:22] Amber Theurer: You know what I mean? I had the very fortunate and blessed experience of growing up with neighbors. Mm-hmm. And I think it played a really big role because there was a lot of young children that were my age and we were like, do you wanna do chalk? Yes. Let's go do chalk. And it was this so beautiful experience of all the kids getting into this flow ish state, let talk.

[00:13:48] Amber Theurer: And sometimes we would like jump over and collaborate on Sally's thing and then come back to our own Mm. And like so many hours would pass. But I think there was this [00:14:00] also safety of being. Watched and seen and looked out for by the entire neighborhood, but given freedom to just be with your fellow little like humans.

[00:14:12] Amber Theurer: Right? So there was this element of autonomy, but also this element of safety. 'cause I remember this one time, one of the girls, we also had like roller skates. Like we would bring out all the goods, free reign, right? And like this one neighbor, she fell and I'll never forget, instantly one of the neighbors, it wasn't her parent came out and picked her up.

[00:14:30] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm. Cleaned up the wound and she was back out. She was back out doing chalk like 10 minutes later. You know what I mean? Like there's this like other safety that was like existing in this neighborhood feeling, but then there was a deep just, I don't know, freedom of the children to do what they wanted.

[00:14:47] Amber Theurer: Yeah. Yeah. Where was that

[00:14:50] Anne V Mühlethaler: in the world? It

[00:14:50] Amber Theurer: was in Pennsylvania. That's where I grew up. In the suburbs of Philadelphia.

[00:14:54] Anne V Mühlethaler: Hmm. Yeah, it sounds wonderful. It sounds remarkably like , where I grew up though, that was [00:15:00] in rural Switzerland in the tiniest village. Okay. Where we just, there were two streets that we spent most our, I mean, country lanes more than streets, right?

[00:15:08] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. , but there were two streets that we would spend most of our time on, and ours was less fun. So we went to the one next door that had the wonderful name of, 'La petite descente' which means the little slope. And so we, when we would leave, um, the h you know, at 8:00 PM in the summer, I'd be like, oh, and my brother and I would like sort of run after good perform.

[00:15:33] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's so sweet. , But it's, , and it's funny 'cause actually the kids, there's a school just underneath, like below my building, and the kids at school really still like to chalk. I will have, you know, there's a lot of chalking happening , in , the park below me. But I was, I was wondering then.

[00:15:50] Anne V Mühlethaler: How interesting that you are so connected both to the physical and the digital, but, and it, it strikes me that this example just [00:16:00] also shows how much this experience of being out in the world with friends in the safety , out in the world, but in safety, right?

[00:16:09] Amber Theurer: Yeah.

[00:16:10] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. And how much that has given you.

[00:16:12] Anne V Mühlethaler: But then what was your experience when you started using, phones and digital devices?

[00:16:18] Amber Theurer: Hmm. So I've always had a really positive experience of the internet. And that's not to say like I did struggle with like, , body image things or health obsessions at a young age, right? I think those were some of the blips in childhood, but also that's so related to internal.

[00:16:42] Amber Theurer: Processing and then reinforcement of something in an algorithm. Right. I think there was a lot of, especially in the ages that I was growing up, there was not yet a lot of policy, I guess you would say, around certain images in those areas. So there wasn't like scanning for certain hashtags. You could really see [00:17:00] whatever, and it could go down like horrible rabbit holes.

[00:17:02] Amber Theurer: Right. On the flip of that though, I remember , as I trace it back, the internet was my first access to like expanders of possibility and I first started using tech, I guess you could say, using like DVD games. And I was upset. Weird. I'm not a dog person really, but I was obsessed with dogs 'cause like we couldn't have them.

[00:17:29] Amber Theurer: And so I was like super educated on dogs and then super educated on like fashion design. 'cause I was really into this thing. And then. You know what I mean? So you could play DVD games that also assisted these interests. , which like, I don't know anyone that has harnessed either of those two things in my immediate vicinity in the physical as a child.

[00:17:46] Amber Theurer: And then fast forward that to teenagers, which I was mentioning. I started to, so I went to a college preparatory school. Mm-hmm. But actually no one in my blood family, I have a whole village, as you know, of humans who have come to [00:18:00] include a family definition. No one had graduated college.

[00:18:02] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm. So a lot of my yeah, like entrance into the world was coming through my teachers, my guidance counselors, and the internet. Okay, this is what you wanna do in life. What do you do to get there? Right. And it's not that my parents, my dad and my stepmom didn't wanna support that process. It's just like.

[00:18:23] Amber Theurer: Their direct experiences didn't include all of those things. Right? Sure. And so, well, actually my stepmom did graduate college. But again, in like my own lineage, and that goes into a whole story, whatever, but I digress. I go down this little portal because there are these YouTubers called Damon and Jo, I don't think they make content together anymore, but I remember being in this school and when there's pressures of like, you need to apply to college, I was like, high up in this, in my class, right?

[00:18:50] Amber Theurer: And so all the guidance counselor are like, what do you mean you're not applying to X school? Right? And I was like, well, I kind of wanna be like a naturopath and like travel to the seven continents and [00:19:00] study their healing practices. And they're like, Hmm, we think you should maybe consider a degree.

[00:19:07] Amber Theurer: And I'm like, oh, okay. Yeah. Like maybe I should. And so what was cool though was there were these YouTubers name Damon and Jo and they were super smart, like so intelligent, I think. They both definitely finished college and I think one of them ended up doing like a master's, whatever, and they, they traveled the world before remote work was even a thing before.

[00:19:31] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm. , like no mattering was a thing. And I remember watching them as a teenager being like, wait, it is possible to be super knowledgeable in a certain domain and also live a life of deep curiosity where you continue learning outside of your home country culture, background, experiences, et cetera. And there's plenty of other examples of that, but I give that because as I look back in time, this positive, influence of the internet was [00:20:00] really because it allowed me and so many others to access possibilities that we never would've seen as lived realities if it weren't for access to the internet.

[00:20:13] Anne V Mühlethaler: These guys sound amazing. Can

[00:20:16] Amber Theurer: I say

[00:20:16] Anne V Mühlethaler: something else?

[00:20:17] Amber Theurer: I had these two, two very, very, very close friends who I traveled a lot with when I was still in working in startups. 'cause we were remote, they look exactly like Damon and Jo and I had this crazy experience where I was like, oh my god, Nick and Lauren, you guys literally look exactly like Damon and Jo.

[00:20:34] Amber Theurer: It was a male and female best friends and we, and I showed them a video and we were like, that's a manifestation. Like it's not real, like amazing. I'm gonna try to find your old content and send it to you. 'cause they're, yes, please. They're amazing. You put it in their cruise as well. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:53] Amber Theurer: Their careers evolved in such cool ways too. It's so interesting. You should say that. It makes such a difference [00:21:00] when we hear or see a physical manifestation of something that appeals to who we are. I, I remember the first time I, I went to a lot of trend forecasting conferences. I've always been interested in the future and, and I remember hearing the first time, and it's funny 'cause you were living in Mexico City.

[00:21:26] Anne V Mühlethaler: I remember the hearing the first time in possibly 2011, about the emergence of secondary cities. And I work, obviously by then I worked at Christian Louboutin. I was the, SVP of Global Comms already. And if you worked in fashion, you really had to be in, you know, Paris, London, New York, or Milan.

[00:21:48] Anne V Mühlethaler: Because if you weren't there then nothing really would happen and you can do a bit in LA once in a while in Rome, but that's about it. And so hearing in this place by these amazing guys who were telling us about so many [00:22:00] things that are gonna happen in the future and analyzing the trends and all kinds of sectors, hearing these guys say in the future you could live in Mexico, we can see the rise of Mexico City, a Rome of blah, blah, blah.

[00:22:13] Anne V Mühlethaler: And I was like, oh, I could live in Mexico City or Rome. And so that's, you went to one and I went to the other totally how I was already living remotely in a sense, because I was traveling so much and I was like, most other executives that I know, we were just working from my, from our phone, from the back of a cab or you know, wherever.

[00:22:35] Anne V Mühlethaler: So. But, but they were saying talent wants to live wherever talents want to live and companies are going to have to adapt to the needs of the talent. And I was like, Ooh, am I talent? Anyways, it's good point to what you were saying about the expanders. Sometimes you just need to hear someone say, people will follow the [00:23:00] talent, or I can do this.

[00:23:02] Anne V Mühlethaler: Somebody else has done it before me. For sure.

[00:23:07] Amber Theurer: And I think too, this is why I feel very passionate about media literacy, especially for younger generations because the tools that it does, if used well, which is a whole question mark of how to migrate into like media literacy, right? But in theory they give access to like incredible things that.

[00:23:33] Amber Theurer: Especially young minds would never have the opportunity to see like their curiosity in such followed action. Mm-hmm. And, and it's hard even as an adult who knows that at the same time to keep that intention and not fall into the noise, right? Mm-hmm. I think it's, it's fighting for our attention.

[00:23:58] Amber Theurer: It's free, but the cost is our [00:24:00] attention and, and we forget that we're trading a currency when we use it, right? Because it's made to kind of keep, keep us in. Mm-hmm. And so I will say maybe those are some parts that become, I wanna bring the caveat that I've had such a positive experience, but it's a constant practice to keep engaged in like an intentional way.

[00:24:20] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. I'd love for you to tell me how did you come to be engaged in the field that you are today?

[00:24:27] Amber Theurer: Okay. So my career started when I was still in university, actually. I was studying corporate social responsibility and originally entrepreneurship, but then all the kids were wearing suits to school and I was just like, this is not for me.

[00:24:45] Amber Theurer: , Literally one of like, the sounds so bad, but like one of the, I'll never, ever forget one of the classmates is like, oh, you look so comfortable in class. And I was like, oh man., [00:25:00] I am comfortable in who I am, but like, it was just, it was just a clear, like I, I didn't relate to the path of entrepreneurship in the way that the course was unfolding.

[00:25:10] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm. And so I switched into marketing, which was so much more of a fit. , And I loved it and it was in the school of media versus the school of business, but I still had the business touch from corporate social responsibility.

[00:25:21] Anne V Mühlethaler: Sure.

[00:25:21] Amber Theurer: And in. In doing that, I went to school in Philadelphia, at Temple University.

[00:25:28] Amber Theurer: And, , in doing that, I was really start starting to see some, I was starting to question the curriculum, 'cause we were learning about things like broadcast radio and like print media. And I was like, I'm not entirely sure like what role this will play in the future. And so I started really educating myself outside of school.

[00:25:49] Amber Theurer: And with that I also was very plugged into, I lived in Fishtown, so it's a very neighborhoody field. My family is also, half Puerto Rican. And so there's a, [00:26:00] there's a very large Puerto Rican population that has lived there. I know a lot about the neighborhood, whatever. It felt very homey, right? So my life was lived much more off campus than it was on campus.

[00:26:09] Amber Theurer: With that, I was also befriending a lot of community business owners. You can see where this is going. I was educating myself on gaps in growth and I just started pitching some of the business owners and it worked. And so I started consulting essentially while I was still in school and driving outcomes with companies.

[00:26:28] Amber Theurer: And then that quickly led to also getting some clients in New York. And that's how I landed in New York. One of the biggest clients turned into a full-time role and it was an at-home healthcare company. Mm-hmm. And what we did essentially was bring patient care to the home, think like Uber mm-hmm for clinicians. Mm-hmm. And why I'm sharing this detail is because this is where unknowingly to myself, this thesis of it's people more than anything else, more than product that determines like product market fit. [00:27:00] Mm-hmm. Because the, the company went on to be acquired in 2023, and I think one of the reasons why it was so successful when you launch a company in home healthcare during a pandemic, mm-hmm. The biggest thing we have to listen to is all humans involved. How do the clinicians feel about going into the home? How do the patients feel about this? And I think that's why we were able to really deeply inform from a, a really intentional level of

[00:27:27] Anne V Mühlethaler: Mm.

[00:27:27] Amber Theurer: Consistency of the human throughout the patient care experience, which in the US falls very short oftentimes. Yeah. And so it, throughout the branding, throughout the messaging, throughout the pricing, everything, it was informed by the humans. Like what, it's a two-sided platform. The nurses have needs too, and so does the internal team.

[00:27:47] Amber Theurer: So after that, I went on to start an agency for like human led communication. I, it's not, it was called AVA Studio. It sits at the intersection of product, narrative, , user research and branding. [00:28:00] And so I kind of fused the three to do human listening and then involved that throughout the entire experience.

[00:28:05] Amber Theurer: And I consulted for brands that were mainly on the social impact side. So like a stealth innovation studio by Fortune 500 company, all the way to like femme tech startups or like FKI data management. , and even while I was doing this, this thesis, louder, louder, louder. It's the humans. It's the humans.

[00:28:24] Amber Theurer: So that's how I got into coaching. That's why I started doing the slow sessions. That's why I started to run my first course called Reframing Work and Living in Creative Devotion. 'cause that's how my career unfolded as I just told this whole story, like listening to my own human. And it's now evolved into building at scale tools and experiences that help starting with founders and decision makers lead with more clarity and resilience and honestly reward human over over profit.

[00:28:52] Amber Theurer: Because actually, I rewarding. The first often leads to more of the second, but we

[00:28:57] Anne V Mühlethaler: forget that. so

[00:28:58] Anne V Mühlethaler: I don't think we do, I think that the culture [00:29:00] around us is following an, an an old model. Mm-hmm. Right. That needs mm-hmm. That needs updating.

[00:29:05] Amber Theurer: Totally, totally, totally. It needs the software update. Exactly.

[00:29:11] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. I'd love for us to, I, because I've heard this story before, I would love for you to share also, , I think that you had a seminal experience around that same time while you were at Temple University . Can you tell us that story?

[00:29:28] Amber Theurer: Yes. So I was working at a grocery store, so, oh, I'm gonna, he would love if I was sharing this.

[00:29:36] Amber Theurer: So the founder was following his human. He was someone who lived in Philadelphia for a long time and in Fishtown, it was way before as Gen Floyd as it is right now. And it was essentially a food desert. there was no, there was no like, main hub to buy a lot of fresh food. Um, you might find like some produce and some like small bodegas and things like this.

[00:29:57] Amber Theurer: And so the founder, he would go to [00:30:00] like wholesale produce markets, buy it and sell it out of a van in, in Fishtown. And it was so needed in the neighborhood that it did very well. And so there was an unused, old firefighters place, I don't know what you call it. Yeah. Fire station. And so.

[00:30:20] Amber Theurer: He, something happened where he was able to take over this space and grow what is now River Rewards produce. There's now like multiple locations. It's like a hub for like community engagement, local produce, sellers, local artisans, all these things. And I, I started working there while I was in college.

[00:30:35] Amber Theurer: Basically. I worked full time while I was in college. And I loved working at this place because it was super interest, like sustainability, community engagement, and also Fishtown was like super, it still is very cool, but it was like untapped cool at the time. So the kind of people that were coming in were like, awesome, like such interesting people, like ex directors that decided to retire in Philly or , like [00:31:00] just really cool careers.

[00:31:01] Amber Theurer: Right? And so I was literally stocking shelves, like cashiering, like doing, doing the things like it was probably one of the hardest jobs I've ever had. And I knew something else was coming, right? Like I was in this deep, deep philosophical time of the courses that I enjoyed at school. I didn't always attend all of my classes.

[00:31:27] Amber Theurer: But I did go to mainly my philosophy classes, which led to like a summer of deep philosophy, whatever, and I could feel this other thing on the other side. This was the summer right before I dropped outta college.

[00:31:38] Anne V Mühlethaler: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:39] Amber Theurer: I didn't know what it was. I was like, I'm working at a grocery store. I have an internship in art gallery, and I go to, I go to class.

[00:31:46] Amber Theurer: I just decided to live in that reality at the grocery store before it was even a thing. I just kept like enjoying this new energy that I felt like something big, kind of like coming towards. Just enjoyed it so much and I was so [00:32:00] engaged with the visitors of the of the shop. Like such good relationships with them would see them on the street, blah, blah, blah.

[00:32:06] Amber Theurer: And actually. A lot of them ended up being these early clients because I would talk to them all the time and learn about them, listen to what they were discovering in their endeavors or, and I had no idea, like in my head, I was just loving where my feet were, like on the grounds. And that story serves as such a testament for earlier when you asked the question like, how do you follow the pull?

[00:32:33] Amber Theurer: It's such a reminder of it looks like this small thing day by day. And in hindsight it ends up being something like we could never predict. Yeah.

[00:32:45] Anne V Mühlethaler: I wonder, and you may have not reflected about this before, but I wonder, what do you think is the best thing you learned from this experience

[00:32:58] Amber Theurer: To trust. I think it was [00:33:00] terrifying because, essentially my. parents were in real estate. And so I was living in a house that they had owned before the neighborhood like changed. And they were like, if you act as like a property manager, you can live at the house and go to school. It's like a five minute walk to the campus. Right. And so I had made the most informed decisions I could.

[00:33:28] Amber Theurer: I didn't really know what I wanted to do in life. I had rough ideas. I went to the school that I got the most money. Even though I got into my dream colleges, I was like, I don't know. So I'm gonna like make the wisest decision to not have too much debt. Mm-hmm. And. So all these wise things were there.

[00:33:46] Amber Theurer: Right? Like there was a lot of safety and a lot of, I was very fortunate to be in the situation I was, and it took so much just like deep knowing and listening to something beyond me, to the point where I'm like, [00:34:00] gonna tear up a little bit because mm-hmm. Everyone in my life, so few people were like, yeah, that sounds like a great idea to get rid of it all and move to New York at 20.

[00:34:12] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm. They were like, what are you doing? And it, it, I asked myself that too, like all the time. And I had like spreadsheets to show my parents, things to tell my professors. Even I had to do like a, you have to like announce your leave, whatever. Mm-hmm. So I had all the logic there, you know what I mean?

[00:34:33] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm. But even myself, I was like, yeah, what am I doing? And I, but I, it was this steep knowing, like I just had to do it. Hmm. And it was so scary, but so calm and known and exciting at the same time. And so I would say that that had this like writeup initiation feeling to it, where now when that sensation comes up, which I almost get excited when it [00:35:00] does.

[00:35:00] Amber Theurer: , 'cause it's like, oh, okay, cool. There's some level of expansion. And more than myself, it means that I'm able to give even more to the world. It's calling me to some bigger place to maybe do some bigger, more touching, like more touching meaning just more surface area. I get excited. I also get scared, but then I remember the like anchoring feeling that is always present and guiding these moments.

[00:35:22] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:24] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's really beautiful. I'm so glad that you shared that. I, I feel like I'm almost there with you when I. You know, you know that you wanna do something else, and like everyone in your life is like, but why? It's, um, mm-hmm. It takes a lot to actually believe in yourself, trust yourself to, to make a move that goes against what, what everyone wants you to do.

[00:35:51] Anne V Mühlethaler: , Totally. Now I'd like to talk about the question that you and I have reflected on now I have to find it. [00:36:00] Hold on. I swear I just pasted it here and now I can't see it. Can you hang on one sec? Yeah, yeah. Where are you? Question. Question is decided to, oh, there you go. All right. It's better if I can find it.

[00:36:22] Anne V Mühlethaler: So you and I. Discussed a few weeks ago, what would be an interesting question for us to meet around and mm-hmm. Yes, brand new audience. I have explained to you earlier in the introduction why we are meeting around a question. But I thought it was interesting to see two people not in a position of being experts, but showing, not knowing, modeling what we do when we don't know and, and how.

[00:36:58] Anne V Mühlethaler: We navigate the not knowing [00:37:00] and trying to find the solutions together. Mm-hmm. And also because I want everyone to kind of fall in love with how you think. 'cause I love how you think. So this is obviously me trying to just set you up on a stage to show how brilliant my friend Ambi is. Really. So the question that came up for us, and we had a couple of good ones, the question that we came up with.

[00:37:22] Anne V Mühlethaler: How do you make resources move with more integrity in a transactional society? I thought that first, could you tell me how did you land on this question? Why is it important to you?

[00:37:42] Amber Theurer: Truthfully? Mm-hmm. I,

[00:37:48] Amber Theurer: I'm gonna start with myself and then how that's kind of looked outward onto the world. I had as most of us do, a fairly difficult childhood with a lot of ups and downs. And I was raised mainly by my [00:38:00] father. And at the same time that he was raising us, he was building a business. And he also had no models of this before him.

[00:38:08] Amber Theurer: And there was a, a fair bit of turbulence, like coming in from the interpersonal and family dynamics. And I remember being a child and always asking the question like, is, is it gonna be okay? , what's going on? And he's an amazing, amazing father. Like, yeah, I, I love men because of my dad. You know what I mean?

[00:38:28] Amber Theurer: I'm like, oh my God, what a blessing to have this like, blueprint of like, masculinity. And he would always say, yeah, of course we'll be okay. We have love. When you're rich in love, everything else follows suit. And I remember every time he would say that, just like deepening, deepening, deepening this trust in something beyond us.

[00:38:49] Amber Theurer: And, hmm. Lo and behold, like a, we always were okay, thank God, B meaning like emotionally amazing people around us. , [00:39:00] Yeah, food to eat, a place to live, right? Mm-hmm. And addition to that, in addition to that, the way that life unfolded ended up actually matching that investment of love tenfold with other resources such as like money, connectivity, deeper family.

[00:39:17] Amber Theurer: He ended up like remarrying the love of his life,business did so well, like friendships and community like excelled and great kid, you know what I mean? Like all of it. All of it, all of it. And I remember like that being the sort of framework of currency that I always witnessed. As a, as a young person throughout into life.

[00:39:42] Amber Theurer: And so any time that I interacted with a system, I kind would have this like, oh, well the root here is love.

[00:39:50] Anne V Mühlethaler: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:50] Amber Theurer: If we go towards the thing that feels most like that, which is gonna feel different for each and every one of us, I think the rest of the resources will also line up, including money [00:40:00] that translated to like a career that did pretty well in very, like, quantitative settings, like marketing, blah, blah, blah, healthcare, whatever.

[00:40:07] Amber Theurer: Right? And I was like, oh, okay. There's like something to this love thing, you know? Um, and, and yeah, that's kind of how the framework has been. And for a while, to be honest, I felt a little crazy for believing that that was like so obvious in my head. And it, there's many other ways of looking at the world, but that way feels really good and sovereign and truthful.

[00:40:33] Amber Theurer: And it also results in the things that we need to live and grow and provide value to one another. So it's one that's. Felt good to embrace. Mm.

[00:40:45] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. So I completely adore your dad, even though I don't know him. Shout out Joe. I went, I went a little bit misty when you talked about him, and it's such a beautiful answer and I [00:41:00] love how you integrated what he said to you and how that has actually probably built this inner compass that has guided you through life.

[00:41:07] Anne V Mühlethaler: And how do you think this can then power us to look at how to make those resources in life with move with more integrity? How do we, how would, how do we take this to help solve the greater problems that surround us?

[00:41:27] Amber Theurer: Definitely. I, I genuinely believe it starts with being honest about what our currencies are.

[00:41:34] Amber Theurer: Hmm. Like go on placing ourselves on Mars, where like the codes of your country, the dominant currencies of your country, like a little experiment with ourselves, right? Like place ourselves outside of all contexts and we don't even have to move from our seat. Like we could do it right now. What are the currencies that we actually prioritize?

[00:41:55] Amber Theurer: And if we actually take inventory of the way that we spend our time, we can start to [00:42:00] see threads in like, oh, I think my top currency is money if I'm not questioning this, but it's actually freedom. Like the reason why I want money is because my actions show me I want freedom. Mm-hmm. Right? And so when we're honest about ourselves with our currencies, time freedom, money, connection, I think those would be the groupings of the four.

[00:42:25] Amber Theurer: And also through the project I'm currently working on, those are some that we've been able to identify that guide a lot of people's actions. First step is being honest, keeping it so real, right? Mm-hmm. And from that place, we're able to see like, okay, if time is my biggest currency, I need to set up say my business in a way that allows me to have fluidity in the way that I spend my time, while also serving the individuals who I've chosen to serve.[00:43:00]

[00:43:00] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm. Through creating an entity, right? Yeah. And when we also know our currencies, I think the more important piece here is that we're so much more equipped to meet others with more respect and cooperation, even if they differ from our priorities of currencies, say in like a friendship, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:43:21] Amber Theurer: If we, if, if, if a friend really values freedom. And another really values connection. Being honest with one another about that being the motivation behind action becomes way less personal. The person who's craving connection can respect, but like, oh, Amber really enjoys being free to follow what the world offers in a day.

[00:43:50] Amber Theurer: It's nothing to have to do with connecting with me. And she's actually better able to show up in connection when she has that. And me being able to be like, oh my God, this person isn't [00:44:00] being, needy or clingy or anything. They just really value connection in their life. And when I have space to do that, I am gonna do that with even more intentionality because it's what they value most.

[00:44:13] Amber Theurer: And so it becomes a way less like,. It's so funny because when we actually name it the, the chaos, the storm emotional chaosy feeling. Mm-hmm. Right. That usually takes over when we don't name it. Yeah. Gets so much more space to be like more of a light drizzle than like a hurricane. Yeah. And together we start dancing in the rain instead of being like close the windows , or the doors a hurricane's coming, you know what I'm saying?

[00:44:41] Anne V Mühlethaler: You analogy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:44:44] Amber Theurer: It's like, oh, okay, cool. We're gonna get a little bit wet. It's gonna be a little bit uncomfortable. I hate the feeling of like. wet denim on my body, but like, it's gonna be okay. You know

[00:44:54] Anne V Mühlethaler: what I mean? Like, we're gonna figure it out. But it's so funny you should say that because I have a friend who just texted [00:45:00] me yesterday and today 'cause he keeps on saying, can I come for breakfast and grab coffee with you?

[00:45:04] Anne V Mühlethaler: Or, yeah, okay, you're not free, but okay, can I come tonight? And I was like, no, I'm finishing late. And, and, and describe me as time is my favorite thing, right? Yes. And the freedom to do the thing I wanna pursue. And he's there asking for connection. And it's not that I don't wanna see him, 'cause clearly it's gonna be brilliant, but right now I have other priorities this week.

[00:45:25] Anne V Mühlethaler: And it's really tough to deliver that with kindness. But so thank you because this really speaks to something that was alive in my life for several hours since yesterday because the back and forth of "Well, but when are we gonna see each other" and thank you. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

[00:45:42] Amber Theurer: It's really funny. It is because it's like, it, it's almost like.

[00:45:48] Amber Theurer: This eureka moment where we get to sit back a little bit and it's like, ah, okay. Now I have a little bit of a framework to help, to help guide that conversation with Mr. Mans, like the coffee mans, you know what I [00:46:00] mean? Like you can be like, Hey, this weekend I need to place a lot of priority in my time.

[00:46:04] Amber Theurer: Yeah. But I'm so excited for an even more intentional connection given how crazy it's been. Like it gives us so many more tools to explain like how to, how to keep our currency but still exchange with someone else. And I think when we can do that, this analogy can also relate to business, it can relate to, even our relationship with ourselves.

[00:46:27] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm. Just assessing how we're exchanging things with the world. Yeah.

[00:46:32] Anne V Mühlethaler: Well I was gonna pull at the thread of time because you run Slow Sessions and there time related, obviously. Do you mind telling me what's your relationship to time, perhaps first and foremost?

[00:46:47] Amber Theurer: Hmm. I would assess it as fluid.

[00:46:55] Amber Theurer: And what really became an illuminating [00:47:00] moment for me was, I know earlier we were like kind of joking about like the dog on the street and like how fast we walk in New York, whatever. But I remember when I had first arrived in Mexico City, I constantly kept feeling myself being like, where am I rushing to?

[00:47:15] Amber Theurer: And I hadn't even like subconsciously understood that I had this rushing energy in me, where, I don't know, as if like time, my relationship was like a lacking relationship with time, right? A desperate relationship with time. But it's funny because if. Traditionally been quite, I really enjoy exploration and curiosity and wandering, whether it's just in my own head or like around the world, walking during travel.

[00:47:45] Amber Theurer: And so I was kind of jarred by this subconscious pace that I had established with myself when seeing it applied in a different environment. Hmm. And so I took a lot of time to time to [00:48:00] like work with that and slow down, you know? And I had, right when I moved to Mexico City, I, one of my clients, as I mentioned, was like a social impact Fortune 500 studio, basically.

[00:48:13] Amber Theurer: And they had offered me a role, and I hadn't really been looking for a full-time job, but I loved this team. I was gonna take it. And some things happened where the, the entity moved into another place and there's a lot of shifting. The roles didn't exist anymore. Mm-hmm. And I had this open space. And I was like, well, what's the rush to do the same thing?

[00:48:35] Amber Theurer: What's the rush to figure this all out? Can I slow down? Which ended up actually allowing me to speed up because it got me super clear on , I wanna work with the people. It's always been like it's people over product that determines product market fit by slowing down. I was able to see that thought so clearly that diamond, that gem, as we mentioned before, like so clearly it's always been shining, but I was [00:49:00] moving so fast that I couldn't even see it.

[00:49:01] Amber Theurer: And I was able to keep following the shine through having a lot more time and space to, to see the things that were kind of always there. But I was moving so fast or having so much noise to be able to see it. And ironically, it's also where I met one of my co-founders on the project I've mentioned like so many crazy things came from what I thought was just like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be here for a bit and like yeah, like dramatically sped up the timeline of how my journey is changing. Hmm. But I could have never predicted that when I chose to slow down.

[00:49:45] Anne V Mühlethaler: Hmm. Yeah. It's gorgeous. Do you know, you're making me think that last year I haven't finished it, but I started an essay. You know how people have body dysmorphia?

[00:49:56] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yes. I have time dysmorphia. I always think I [00:50:00] have more time. Yes, yes. And it's a difficulty because I always, I discovered the, what is it called again? Is it called the time fallacy or the planning fallacy? Anyways, I always think I can do more than I can in a whole day. So I enjoy the thought process of anything that can bring us to slow down, 'cause I'm way too ambitious for the number of minutes I have.

[00:50:29] Amber Theurer: Totally. You know, something that I started doing actually that is like, so, 'cause sometimes I get in this thing too, and I don't know if you store your to-dos, do you like store your to-dos on anything?

[00:50:42] Amber Theurer: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:43] Anne V Mühlethaler: Okay. Yeah, I put them on craft. Yeah.

[00:50:45] Amber Theurer: Okay. So I would like have all these to-dos and if someone from the ex for one day, and if someone from the external world were to like, come and sit down, they'd be like, you know, like, okay. And what I started to [00:51:00] do, I did, I ran an experiment with myself where I only chose the things that were top priority for that very day.

[00:51:07] Amber Theurer: It's blocking someone or something is the single next step. For something else that the rest of the dominoes to be pushed. Right. And then I put these other tasks in an area that I could still see, but I would say being taken care of, IE by like source the universe, something like this. And it was so weird because my thought was , there's probably a reason why I shouldn't be doing some of these things right now.

[00:51:32] Amber Theurer: IE reach out to X. Right? Weirdly, those people start like reaching out to me or I'd have some additional idea for a project. So there was some wisdom in the percolation time. Yeah. And it was very fun to track. 'cause it wasn't like I'm gonna push them out of like out of sight, out of my nose. Like they're still sitting here, but there's some percolation and brewing happening that's, they're just not yet ready.

[00:51:59] Amber Theurer: They need [00:52:00] some, like a little bit more time in the oven. Mm-hmm. They'll taste better when they're like warm. The cookies of.

[00:52:06] Anne V Mühlethaler: Creativity, the The new cookies.

[00:52:09] Amber Theurer: Yeah, exactly. And so, I don't know, it was a fun experiment. I didn't really have a lot of expectations what would happen, and then that did happen. So

[00:52:19] Anne V Mühlethaler: yeah.

[00:52:20] Anne V Mühlethaler: Nice. It's funny you should say that because I run my to-do list almost as something is, it's so that I can capture all of the ideas of the things I wanna do. Totally. It's more about putting them somewhere so I can come back to it over and over again. And then it's a negotiation. It's like I go through, I scan the list and I go with the priority or kind of like what you said.

[00:52:46] Anne V Mühlethaler: I follow the energy. I'm like, oh no, I really wanna do that. And so there are days where I will have calendarized something very specific, and my energy's gonna take me into a completely different direction. And I know it's not technically procrastination because it's something that's also on my [00:53:00] to-do list.

[00:53:01] Anne V Mühlethaler: Totally. But that could be at a different priority stage or from a few days ago. And so I'm trying to let myself navigate this. But one of the things I did, I tried to keep in the back of my mind, when I did my yoga teacher training back in 2019, I remember so accurately, we had a really long, intense, like two hour, physical yoga session.

[00:53:23] Anne V Mühlethaler: And then the teacher gave us like a stupidly long, shavasana, like 15 or 20 minutes. And at the end of that, she asked us to sit in a meditation posture. And she asked us to reflect on the question of "what is an obstacle that I can remove?" And you know how we place so many obstacles in our own way? And so while I try to negotiate my priorities and my to-dos myself, I regularly come back to that question of what is an obstacle I can remove?

[00:53:53] Anne V Mühlethaler: Because sometimes the thing we don't do are things that take us a couple of seconds or a few minutes, and there's no [00:54:00] real drama apart from, I don't know. I'm not gonna try to analyze our, you know, the, the, the functioning of our minds. Yeah. Yeah. But just asking myself that question just as you go with the trust, the trust that I can also look at this from another angle and just find a way to make my own life easier, in a sense.

[00:54:24] Anne V Mühlethaler: Totally, totally stupidly simple and deeply powerful.

[00:54:29] Amber Theurer: Yeah. And it almost feels like too simple. I promise, weeks on

[00:54:35] Anne V Mühlethaler: end. I, I, I, for weeks on end, I put it as a post-it on my, on my computer to be like, okay, once a day, just look at this.

[00:54:43] Amber Theurer: Mm. Yeah. I love this. What are the obstacles that you can remove?

[00:54:47] Anne V Mühlethaler: Like

[00:54:48] Amber Theurer: even if it's just one,

[00:54:48] Anne V Mühlethaler: what is a single obstacle that you can remove?

[00:54:50] Anne V Mühlethaler: Like you said? Yeah, just one. Totally. Amber, it's been such a wonderful experience talking to you again. I just [00:55:00] love our conversations. You're, I just love how you think. I love your spirit, your energy, what you bring to the world, and I'm so excited to be introducing you to people who may not know you already.

[00:55:12] Anne V Mühlethaler: And obviously this is the first of. Many conversations. This is a new kind of podcast. My goal is not just to have brilliant conversations with just new people. My goal is to have great conversations that hopefully will bring something to, to our wonderful listeners, but bring this my wonderful, brilliant friends back so that they can shine some more like you.

[00:55:35] Amber Theurer: Aw, yeah. Having you always thinking know, I come from a place

[00:55:39] Anne V Mühlethaler: of, of fandom for, for, for who you are and what you do.

[00:55:43] Amber Theurer: It's mutual. The fan girl is real for

[00:55:45] Anne V Mühlethaler: me and you. I know it's mutual fan girling. It's, it's really helpful for I know. It's the best kind of fan

[00:55:52] Amber Theurer: girling. Exactly. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:55:55] Amber Theurer: And yeah, I feel like our conversations are portals like it, it [00:56:00] always feels like this time and space of remembrance. Yeah. And so thank you. Thank you, thank you. Oh no,

[00:56:06] Anne V Mühlethaler: I forgot to say something, by the way. So you haven't seen the artwork of the podcast? 'cause at the time of the recording, the artwork is not ready yet.

[00:56:15] Anne V Mühlethaler: But the idea Yes is that it's all about the multifaceted gem. And so it goes back to our conversation from a couple of months ago when we were talking about yes, what Le Trenten is all about, which was all about mining for insights and stories in our lives. And then it was about mining and shining. And also how we reflect that, you know, from each other.

[00:56:38] Anne V Mühlethaler: So I can't wait to send it to you. And it is a concept that is not the easiest to explain to most people. But then it is the truth also of, what's at the heart of, of what I'm hoping to create. So, so why not go with the totally with the truth of mining and shining our inner gems.

[00:56:57] Amber Theurer: And also it's like that thing [00:57:00] of 7% of communication Yeah. Is words and the rest is felt, seen, like, intuited. And you're, yeah. I love this. I can't wait to see you.

[00:57:11] Anne V Mühlethaler: I know. I'm so excited. This is so cool. Yeah. Thank you so much for being who you're, I'm excited about our next conversation. I'll send you an email after that and Yes, and I'm excited about, you leading some slow sessions and also inviting, our audience to, to rediscover work as well.

[00:57:30] Anne V Mühlethaler: But we'll talk about that, , some other time. Yes. And then in the meantime, I'll let you get on to, hopefully have a beautiful, beautiful day in, steamy Hot New York City.

[00:57:40] Amber Theurer: Yes, I would send you some sunshine, but I don't think you want this one with it. No, I have enough right now. Yeah. Oh, and thank you so much.

[00:57:49] Amber Theurer: I'm really looking forward to chatting again. Kiss, kiss. Have a great day. Bye.

You too. Bye.