How to hold and balance multiple identities in a world that asks us to choose just one?

Danielle Keller on the Metta Interview Podcast

[00:00:00] Anne Mühlethaler: Hi. Hello and welcome to the meta interview, generous Conversations with Brilliant Humans, and I'm your host Ann v Alala. , today I have the great pleasure to invite Danielle Keller Avira as a guest.

[00:00:17] Anne Mühlethaler: Danielle is a specialized, sustainable jewelry consultant, researcher and lecturer. An alumna of Shanker's jewelry design department. She holds a master's degree in sustainable fashion from a MD Berlin. Danielle works with jewelry related organizations and businesses, including the RJC and SIB Jo, developing sustainable strategies.

[00:00:42] Anne Mühlethaler: Her expertise extends to writing about sustainable jewelry and fashion for prominent magazines like Rappaport Magazines and JCK. She regularly lectures and conducts workshops on the intersection of sustainability [00:01:00] and design at notable institutions and events such as Berlin Fashion Week, London College of Fashion, and Holding University of Design in Denmark.

[00:01:10] Anne Mühlethaler: Most recently, alongside several colleagues, she co-founded Truly Precious, a foundation dedicated to fostering a sustainable knowledge sharing platform for the jewelry sector. Now, I'll tell you how our paths first crossed. A number of years ago, friends in the UK and Italy connected me to people working in a UN sustainable fashion program.

[00:01:34] Anne Mühlethaler: One thing led to another and one of them put me in touch with Danielle. At the time, I was consulting with a couple of fine jewelry brands in the UK and the US. To be fair, I have a lot of jeweller of friends. My karma, I guess. Daniella and I never connected properly as my consultancy retainer ended not long after.

[00:01:57] Anne Mühlethaler: But somehow I always kept an eye on her work. [00:02:00] LinkedIn. I consider myself generally a woman of my word, and the fact that we were never able to work together, I think irked me. Now, luckily, earlier this year, a good friend of mine invited me to speak on a panel at Soho House, Berlin.

[00:02:16] Anne Mühlethaler: Any excuse to go to Berlin is good in my book. I remembered Danielle and we reconnected eventually meeting in person in September. Now, this time I was wearing a very different hat that of entrepreneur and curator of experiences from salons to workshops, to masterclasses, and of course, podcasts. And finally I had the perfect excuse to get to know her better.

[00:02:42] Anne Mühlethaler: Her first masterclass with Le Trente is coming up on December 8th at 5:00 PM Central European time ahead of it. I'm excited to have you discover her story and explore the question that feels most alive for her right now.

[00:02:57] Anne Mühlethaler: So without further ado, let's dive [00:03:00] in. Enjoy.

[00:03:01] Anne Mühlethaler: Danielle, it's so lovely to see you. Welcome to the meta interview.

[00:03:05] Danielle: I'm so happy to be here.

[00:03:07] Anne Muhlethaler: So, as you already know, I like to start the Metta interview with a different kind of question than what I bring to out the clouds.

[00:03:18] Anne Muhlethaler: And the first one that I really enjoy asking before we dive in is I'd love to hear from you what is bringing you joy or excitement these days?

[00:03:32] Danielle: Hmm, that's a good question. So I have two small kids, so doing like silly kids things with them like dancing or, just being with them, like trying to invite them to my world, but discovering things from a kid's perspective.

[00:03:53] Danielle: My son is really intrigued by robbery and all of these kind of [00:04:00] things, I think talking about like police and all of that in the kindergarten. And I just share with them that there was this robbery in the luva, which is connected to my world. And, just their fascination with like, how it happened, what was stolen. And I shared with them like also some more specific things about the, the items, the jewelry items that were, and they were like, oh, where are they? Where are these robbers? Where did they go? Did the police catch them? And it's just so interesting, to see like where our worlds actually meet.

[00:04:37] Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. So this brings me joy these days.

[00:04:41] Anne Muhlethaler: Oh, that's so sweet. It's funny you should say that because the, one of the things that brought me the most amusement. If not Joy this week was watching, there's an Instagram account called Overheard New York. I don't know if you've come across it before.

[00:04:57] Anne Muhlethaler: And they took pictures of what they found [00:05:00] to be the best signs put up by people who were supporting those who were running the New York Marathon on Sunday. And one of the signs that I saw was like, run, like you just stole from the Louvre. And that just made me laugh so hard. It was very enjoyable.

[00:05:17] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:05:18] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah. There's something about jewelry heist, I must say. I, I know there's a couple of heist movies coming up. I've heard there's gonna be an Oceans 14. I'm kind of like your son. There's that sort of mystique and sparkle of excitement. Yeah. That goes with white collar thievery, especially good movies or books.

[00:05:40] Danielle: Yeah. Think especially with jewelry. There is like this pressure of time. Mm. The longer it takes to get the any tracks on what happened

[00:05:50] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:05:50] Danielle: Makes it more complicated to trace back the items, the materials, anything. Mm. And it's clear also that the [00:06:00] objects are valued much higher than the value of the actual materials.

[00:06:04] Danielle: Although the materials were exclusive and rare, it's clear that the crown worn by the wife of Napoleon were much more the sum of the diamonds or sapphires or gold. Yeah, it's like stories that you, you're sometimes amazed that nobody made them up, that they happened in reality.

[00:06:27] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah, that's so true. I love that we've already connected a little bit to what it is that you do. It's like, ooh. A lovely thread. So, do me a favor, please. Would you introduce yourself and talk about who you are in a few words. Okay. In whatever words you'd like to use as well.

[00:06:50] Danielle: , so originally I'm a jewelry designer, an accessories designer by education.

[00:06:56] Danielle: And in the last decade or so, after [00:07:00] working as a jeweler, for my own brand, but also for other brands, I started being really curious about sustainability and where jewelry and sustainability meets. Mm-hmm. And, this curiosity led me to. Understand that I need more knowledge, I moved to Berlin and I did here an MA that was focused on sustainability in fashion, and it was a fascinating program, a really international one.

[00:07:32] Danielle: I met people from all around the world. Mm-hmm. , and I think it was really valuable from this perspective that you get like a really international lens of what's going on around the world. Yeah. But at the same time understand that everyone is in the end, are worried and bothered by the same problems and challenges.

[00:07:53] Danielle: And since then I've been doing, sustainable, mainly jewelry consulting and researching and lecturing. [00:08:00] So I'm working with industry organizations, private companies, universities, trying to support them into implementing more sustainable. Content, strategies, actions, systems change, so on.

[00:08:17] Anne Muhlethaler: That's great.

[00:08:18] Anne Muhlethaler: Thank you so much. I am I right in saying as well that you've created a platform for people to share industry knowledge. Would you tell us a bit more about that?

[00:08:29] Danielle: Yeah. So together with three other colleagues, that each one of us is also part of the jewelry industry, but we are all doing our own things on top of that.

[00:08:39] Danielle: Mm-hmm. We registered in the summer as a foundation and we opened an online community, that for now, its main purpose is to be an amplifier and a connection builder for people that are interested in sustainability within jewelry. Doesn't matter where [00:09:00] they're based around the world and what their position is and how knowledgeable they are.

[00:09:04] Danielle: But it's a place to meet, ask questions, learn from each other, hopefully build partnerships. and slowly we are trying to bring this into some more meaningful actions besides just, it's not just knowledge is really important and it's a key element. But we are also trying to, to expand this into becoming something that leads to positive impact somehow.

[00:09:35] Danielle: And we're trying to now frame which other projects, we are able to, to put in as part of the foundation's work.

[00:09:48] Anne Muhlethaler: Mm, that's wonderful. Remind me what it is called.

[00:09:51] Danielle: It's called Truly Precious.

[00:09:53] Anne Muhlethaler: There you go. I knew Precious was in it. Yeah, just I wasn't sure about the wording. Thank you so much for [00:10:00] sharing that.

[00:10:00] Anne Muhlethaler: That's wonderful. Now I like to try and explore how, and you're gonna appreciate this being a jeweler, how multifaceted we are. And so one of the things that I'd love to explore with you is a few key stories that, that are emergent for you today. That can explain how you became who you are today. And so, what is a childhood memory that you can think of that still makes you smile and that helps you connect to who you were as a, as a kid?

[00:10:34] Danielle: Oh, wow. Since I was small, I, I really liked art and culture. Hmm. I think sometimes it's hard for you to know, when you grow up, if it's something that you were born with or if it's something that you like inherit from your parents or your family. But since I was small, I remember that we would go to museums, we would see theater [00:11:00] shows and music shows and dance shows and all of that.

[00:11:05] Danielle: And at a relatively early age, I started dancing, ballet. And, a really nice memory that makes me smile. I would say that. , I remember that when I was nine, I think we as a family went to France. Back then, my uncle used to live in Paris and we went to Musée d'Orsay oh yeah. And I really remember that as a.

[00:11:37] Danielle: Really special moment, first of all, like the building is Wow. Yeah, I agree. In my opinion. And also seeing some of the, the paintings that I heard about in real life was magical moment, I would say. Mm. So I think since a young age, I have appreciation [00:12:00] for seeing tangible things.

[00:12:02] Speaker: Mm.

[00:12:03] Danielle: Or like experiencing things firsthand.

[00:12:07] Danielle: I don't know if it's, that's fascinating. Yeah.

[00:12:10] Anne Muhlethaler: It's fascinating. But the, the sweet thing, and I wonder if some of our listeners are gonna feel the same if they've visited Paris and the, is that, as you talk about it I remember being there and seeing Monet's paintings in particular, which I think really resonated with me as a as a teenager when I went there with my parents. Mm.

[00:12:33] Danielle: Yeah. I have like, an image of me walking in this gallery with like this you get a lot of natural light because of the glass , the architecture there. And I really remember the bright light there and how it reflects in the paintings.

[00:12:50] Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's, it, it was it was a really nice trip and it was a special, special moment I think. [00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Anne Muhlethaler: I wonder what would be, if, if you can think of it, an early experience in your life that planted the seed for the work that you do today.

[00:13:13] Danielle: Oh wow. It's hard for me to point, like one moment in my childhood, but I think that maybe the emphasis that my parents put on us experiencing culture and I mean like culture in a relatively, I think back then I didn't understood it. It was exceptional. But the older I got, I understood that it was relatively exceptional.

[00:13:44] Danielle: That when we traveled around the world or when, even when we were in Israel, we we went to quite a lot of adult cultural places. So, I [00:14:00] remember that when I was 12 we went, we did a, a massive trip, a really long trip in the uk and my wish was to see a classical ballet show and we went to see the Swan Lake, and I don't remember in which venue it was in London, but I remember that I was amazed.

[00:14:21] Danielle: I was really like, and I think this app, maybe like appreciation to cultural, elements, and it could be like more visual ones or more tangible ones. Also we were hearing a lot of music in the house and we were encouraged to play on different instruments since we were young.

[00:14:47] Danielle: And I danced, ballet and I think like all of these kind of. Build a lot of appreciation for me to cultural elements [00:15:00] that have strong meaning. And I think probably this is where, where it meets jewelry really well because I think compared to a lot of other products that we might buy and that they're also connected to the real world, like maybe clothes or maybe furniture with jewelry, I think in a lot of situations it's also connected to meaning and symbolism and usually people buy the majority of the jewelry.

[00:15:36] Danielle: I would say, or maybe I'm wrong, but it's not the majority, but jewelry in general, I think a lot of the purchases are connected to some meaningful. Mm-hmm. And it's not just engagement or wedding. It could be like, I know friends that got for finishing a degree, they got some piece of jewelry or for achieving something meaningful [00:16:00] in their lives.

[00:16:00] Danielle: Mm-hmm. And it doesn't necessarily need to be a gift from someone. It could also be something that you give to yourself. But I think that in a lot of situations we would translate these emotions or achievements into jewelry items. Yeah. And I think it's also connected to the fact that it's to a certain degree, comment to inherit jewelry pieces and, and these kind of things.

[00:16:27] Danielle: So maybe this is where all of these points meet.

[00:16:34] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah, sure. A sense of heritage. So you got a cultural and story

[00:16:40] Danielle: and narrative. Yeah.

[00:16:42] Anne Muhlethaler: Mm. Cultural story, narrative, heritage, transmission meaning?

[00:16:50] Danielle: Yeah. Mm. And I think the point it strike me the most was, was a bit later. When I was in my early twenties, I [00:17:00] went to East Africa and I traveled around East Africa for four months.

[00:17:06] Danielle: I was in Uganda, Ethiopia, and Kenya with a friend.

[00:17:09] Speaker: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:11] Danielle: And, back then there weren't a lot of backpackers in Africa. But we met a few. And I'm, everyone was amazed by the scenery. Of course, the animals, the landscapes you see.. Also the people. And of course I was amazed by all of that. It's not that I wasn't, but I remember that whenever we passed through, like local markets or things like this, the thing that wa I was attracting me the most was the craft.

[00:17:44] Speaker: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:44] Danielle: You know, like seeing what people make. I saw like beautiful textile patterns. Mm-hmm. And like a lot of things that they made from even some silly materials using paper to create [00:18:00] something beautiful. I remember that at some point I dragged my friend to learn how to create, baskets from banana leaves, because I, I saw them in so many markets and I was like, how is this possible?

[00:18:13] Danielle: And like, how they transform them to, to act almost like between like silk to like really thin de. Paper and it was really beautiful. And I remember like the, musical instrument they created from different kinds of pumpkins or, and you're like, pass through a, this kind of market. And I'm like, ah.

[00:18:39] Danielle: So I think this is where I realized that maybe like what attracted me is something a bit different than what everyone that was around me was attracted by. That maybe this is something, there is a reason why I am attracted to that and I should do something about that. And and this is [00:19:00] when I decided that I would apply to learn, jewelry design.

[00:19:04] Danielle: Ah,

[00:19:05] Anne Muhlethaler: thank you so much for telling me that. 'cause I was about to ask you that next question. So it's interesting from narrative heritage, cultural exposure. I guess this echoes as well what your parents did. So your travels exposed you to discover a lot of things, beautiful things that appealed to you and Yeah.

[00:19:36] Anne Muhlethaler: That's, you're making me wanna travel. Yeah. I have a long standing invitation in Uganda and you're making me think, oh, I need to email Etienne okay. So it's

[00:19:48] Danielle: been, it's been probably almost 20 years and I, since I was there, but it's my dream to go back.

[00:19:54] Anne Muhlethaler: Okay, let's work on that. Maybe we combine the trip, 'cause I have a feeling that I [00:20:00] would be like you and I'd be like, oh, can I try to make the thing you're making with you?

[00:20:04] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah. Yeah. What was the catalyst. That got you from jewelry making to pivot into sustainability. Was there a moment, a question, a trigger?

[00:20:21] Danielle: I mean, I think what was, for me, I, I don't remember like one moment, but I think it was a period of time where I was making jewelry mainly from gold and silver using precious stones and diamonds. And I was like a micro brand. It was me. I was making things. I had a bit of help with marketing and sales.

[00:20:45] Danielle: I was selling in galleries and shops in Europe and the us but it was, it was small, really small scale. And whoever would have bought something from me, I would always tell them [00:21:00] I'm trying my best to provide you with the best product from the best materials. You can always come back to me.

[00:21:08] Danielle: I would always be happy to help you in any way. I'm not gonna disappear. But then I started realizing that I actually, like I was stating all of this from an authentic perspective because I was really believing that I am trying my best to provide the best product made from the best materials. But I didn't know anything.

[00:21:32] Danielle: So I was working with suppliers for a few years and I was, I went to my casting facility and I asked them, you know what so I'm buying from you gold every week almost. Can you tell me like where it's coming from? I know for sure it's not coming from where I'm based. So where is it coming from?

[00:21:52] Danielle: And then they were like, Hmm, why are you interested in that? I'm like, I don't know. I sell these kind of products to [00:22:00] people and I can't tell them anything about it. I tell them where I'm making the things. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great. But who touched the goal? Before I did and before you did? Like, and the same with Stones I bought from the same, supplier.

[00:22:17] Danielle: And I told them I also know that like different stones from different different locations have different value. You know, if you buy Burmese rubies, their value is one. If you buy rubies from Mozambique, they're different. So I started researching that and I understood that. I don't know, I don't have enough knowledge to, to state anything.

[00:22:39] Danielle: I don't have the.

[00:22:43] Danielle: I can't promise anything. And I felt that it was a bit, I don't know if misleading is the right word, because it's a bit harsh and wor and heavy because I wasn't doing anything on purpose, but I felt like I tried to ask questions and I [00:23:00] faced a wall. So I got like some responses that they told me, you know, we don't know, which is, I'm sure it's a lie, but like, we don't know.

[00:23:09] Danielle: Yeah. Or there were people saying like, why are you interested in that? It's a bit strange that you're interested in that and starting to be like a bit suspicious about like, why I am asking all of these questions.

[00:23:19] Speaker: Right.

[00:23:19] Danielle: And we are talking about like 10 years ago. So I think even back then, of course, there were already initiatives within the industry trying to tackle some of these problems.

[00:23:30] Danielle: Mm-hmm. But it was really, really, really a niche. So I understood that I'm onto something, but I don't know how to address it. I have zero clue of what to do from this point. Like I'm asking questions, maybe I'm not asking the good enough questions. Maybe I'm not asking the right people. I don't know where to search, who to talk to.

[00:23:49] Danielle: So I reached the dead end and I understood that if that, I think with a lot of revelations, like once you start like digging, you [00:24:00] understand that you can't stop. Like it's, and I had to find out like what's going on within my industry. Like I'm so proudly selling jewelry that it's like this meaningful product that has so much value and you know, like all of emphasizing on craftsmanship and the culture and the meaning and the symbolism and all of that.

[00:24:22] Danielle: But what is actually behind that. And also I felt really strange. I'm working so close with gold and stones and diamonds and I, I have no clue about anything about them. Like it's really, sure. It's really strange. So I, I understood and I also really liked to learn and I really liked to research.

[00:24:45] Danielle: Apparently, back then I didn't thought that I was, that interested in researching. Like I, I thought that I'm a craft person, that I'm a designer, that I, I like doing things with my hands, [00:25:00] which I still do, but I thought that this was my, my superpower or this is my my thing. And then I, I decided that I'm gonna go all the way and start.

[00:25:14] Danielle: Finding a way in which I can get tools and skills to, to dig deeper. So I did hear the Masters, which as I said before was it was mainly wonderful because of my, my friends that studied with me because we were all coming from different places, different cultures, and I think we really enriched each other.

[00:25:39] Danielle: And it was also, like, I mean, I met people from literally from east to west, all, all the way, speaking different languages, celebrating different holidays and all of that. It was really, really special. And and I think that it [00:26:00] emphasized on the fact that in the end. We are all challenged by the same things, so we think, yeah, in Europe maybe things are easier, better, more advanced, more developed, but in the end, like everyone is facing the same issues and the same challenges.

[00:26:17] Danielle: So, there was something really uniting in that, that although each one of us has, it had its own take on sustainability and Sure. And its own like interest and focus and so on. There were a lot of points where we met and we could exchange and we could learn from each other and we could get feedback and it was really, really nice.

[00:26:44] Danielle: Yeah. And since then, I've been just trying to, to accept the fact that I don't know, and I need to keep on learning. All the time because this field is constantly changing.

[00:26:58] Anne Muhlethaler: Sure. The, [00:27:00]

[00:27:01] Danielle: the scope of work on sustainability is constantly changing. Regulations keep on changing research, keep on developing.

[00:27:15] Danielle: So it kind of like always keeps me on my toes and I still have a lot of passion towards creating things like I love craft and I like this kind of medium, but I think that I understood that, as I said before, it's not my superpower. And in a world where we are flooded by products and by things, I thought that it would be best if I keep it as a hobby every once in a while and find maybe other craft things that I like to do.

[00:27:50] Danielle: And, and have this seat taken by someone that is really spectacular. If this analogy makes [00:28:00] any sense. It

[00:28:01] Anne Muhlethaler: totally does. Yeah.

[00:28:03] Danielle: So I still, sometimes, like last year I participated in an exhibition, so I created like some small objects. I mean, now I don't have much time to create jewelry, but I would be happy to go back to the bench at some point just for fun, to do some things.

[00:28:23] Danielle: But I think I was quite overwhelmed with the amount of resources and waste that is produced, and I understood that I love jewelry and I like making jewelry, but I think that, that it would be better for me. If I focus on, on other things.

[00:28:50] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah, that makes sense. I also think, thank you so much for sharing that.

[00:28:52] Anne Muhlethaler: Also

[00:28:52] Danielle: just a one Oh yeah, sure. Point that I think that the majority of [00:29:00] the people that are working around sustainability and are coming actually from other disciplines rather than design and product development. They're coming from law or from finance or from procurement or whatever. Mm-hmm. And it's great and it is really needed, but I think at the same time, drastic change would happen when we start really focusing on systemic change on products level.

[00:29:28] Danielle: This is where we would see like,

[00:29:31] Speaker: sure

[00:29:31] Danielle: the plate flips and, and there are not a lot of people coming to sustainability from understanding products and materials and aesthetics and. Consumers and their expectations and so on. So I think it, it also something that is really, I think, valuable and needed and exceptional in this perspective.

[00:29:59] Anne Muhlethaler: [00:30:00] Yeah. I remember you mentioning that to me last time. We saw each other and as I'm, as you speak, I kind of scan in my mind the people I know who are working in sustainability. And you're right, none of them, apart from you, come from product. Yeah. Although some came to product later after getting into research and all of that.

[00:30:22] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah. And it's true that when I think about it, and I think of the brands I've worked with in the past, either from a business development or communications perspective, I see understanding where they are and how they work, how difficult it is for someone who's got an existing. Product develop and system habits and how difficult it is to change and how much easier it is for someone starting new from scratch, deciding to create a jewelry, a jewelry brand, a watch brand, uh, [00:31:00] a ready to wear brand, even maybe one day, A high street brand that is ethical and sustainable throughout.

[00:31:09] Anne Muhlethaler: Hmm. Yeah. Now to give a little bit more color, let's say, as to talking about who you are and what you do.

[00:31:21] Anne Muhlethaler: If your life were a book right now, what do you think the current chapter would be titled?

[00:31:30] Danielle: Oh, wow. I have no idea.

[00:31:34] Danielle: I think that for a certain amount of time I was feeling that I'm, that I'm walking in a dark tunnel and I don't even have like a candle. Oh. Because, I was in a bit like in between places. So like in my masters, most of the people [00:32:00] came from textile and fashion and apparel. But I was the outsider.

[00:32:06] Danielle: And when I did the masters, I was already kind of like connected to people that were working in, sustainability within jewelry, but no one around my area. So like I, I build a lot of connections, but with people all over the world. So it was really nice. But, and again, again, I didn't have like the immediate connection or like immediate exchange or, you know, like this, you can meet someone for coffee and just like, sure, something starts moving.

[00:32:41] Danielle: So I feel like for a long time I was walking really in like a dark tunnel, trying to find the way and slowly gaining more skills. It could be like confidence or network connections and so on, and slowly puffing my [00:33:00] backpack with things that you need for this journey. And maybe now it's it's like this chapter of like, I slowly see the end of the tunnel.

[00:33:12] Anne Muhlethaler: Very interesting. Thank you so much for that image. It's a fascinating metaphor,

[00:33:18] Danielle: really. Bit dramatic, but, but yeah.

[00:33:20] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah. But at the same time. I was talking with a, with another one of our meta interview guests yesterday, and we were saying how powerful it is when sometimes an image comes to your mind to answer a question as opposed to a very clean narrative, because I think that anyone listening will probably feel for your situation a lot more directly through this image.

[00:33:44] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah, and I totally, I wanna say I empathize because over the last few years as I was trying to find my way as to what kind of work I wanted to do as a consultant, [00:34:00] mixing, consulting and coaching, and I was still looking for trying to connect with brands that were doing work that was existing in the sustainable and ethical space.

[00:34:14] Anne Muhlethaler: I found it really hard, not. Meeting enough people who cared about the things that I cared about. I, it felt like almost like a void for me. It felt like, it, it felt like a, it was only my own voice that echoed in sort of a closed loop. And I think it's wonderful when we can finally find this resonance in someone else outside of us.

[00:34:40] Anne Muhlethaler: Right?

[00:34:41] Danielle: Yeah. And I think it's also really connected to what we discussed prior to, to this recording, about, the fact that actually, you know, what made me reach this point was the fact that [00:35:00] I am combining a lot of different separated elements. That I somehow need to find the right way in which, how they combine into leading to the main path.

[00:35:14] Danielle: Sure. Because the majority of the people that did the BA with me stayed in the jewelry discipline somehow, some way in some structure. And the majority of the people that did my ma went to fashion and I somehow wasn't here. I wasn't there and I had to find the right way in which, how I combine like, yeah, my appreciation and love for products and craft and all of that.

[00:35:48] Danielle: My honest and deepest belief in the way forward is only sustainable, sustainable, responsible, equitable [00:36:00] way of of doing business and products. Side by side to a lot of geopolitical things happening around the world that are directly or indirectly impacting the industry and the people that I was, having conversations with, let alone all of my personal hats that I wear.

[00:36:23] Danielle: Sure. And where do they meet an impact and reflect back and forth to

[00:36:30] Speaker: mm-hmm.

[00:36:31] Danielle: My professional journey? I don't know if it, yes. In my mind it, it, it's somehow connected, but we, we talked about that as well.

[00:36:39] Anne Muhlethaler: Well, you are just leading us gently, but very clearly towards the question that feels really alive for you at the moment.

[00:36:48] Anne Muhlethaler: Yes. So why don't we, why don't we why don't we meet there now? So for our listeners. In case [00:37:00] it's the first time you listen to the meta interview, or maybe I haven't mentioned it enough times, but what we do before we meet for any of these conversations, we have a pre-conversation. When I explore with Danielle and with our other guests, what is a question that feels really alive, for her right now?

[00:37:18] Anne Muhlethaler: And the reason why we do this is, is twofold. First because I realized, or it's, I realized something that came to me over the course of conversations before finalizing the format of the podcast is often when we meet it as experts, it can feel like in French, he says it's you say this, and then I say this and we kind of build up our points.

[00:37:44] Anne Muhlethaler: It's like, I'm so knowledgeable. Let me show you all that I know. And I thought that while it can have its place to share expertise. It can also feel,

[00:37:59] Anne Muhlethaler: [00:38:00] sorry, the word that comes to me is uninteresting. It can feel a bit jarring. And, and instead, as a coach and someone who believes deeply in contemplative and reflection practices, what if we met around a question? Because all of us, we're all human. We all have big questions that exist and perhaps permeate the, the experience, the, the texture of our lives.

[00:38:27] Anne Muhlethaler: And so why not meet around a question to help? I also share more of our humanity and help discover each other a little bit more in depth, particularly because I introduced Danielle here, not just as a guest for this interview, but as someone who's becoming a contributor to the community that is Lat and Danielle is going to offer a masterclass for us next month.

[00:38:51] Anne Muhlethaler: And so I wanted you and in something that I also discover myself, to, yeah, to meet, [00:39:00] listen to, and also explore this question perhaps in your own mind in real time.

[00:39:07] Anne Muhlethaler: So the question that Danielle brought me that we explored together last time, the one that felt the most alive is how. To hold and balance multiple identities and passions simultaneously in a world that keeps asking us to choose just one. So perhaps would you start by giving me a feel for what does this mean in your life at the moment?

[00:39:36] Danielle: So as I started saying, it's also professionally where these things meet. So it's also the fact that when I talk to clients, I'm trying to be really, eye level and understand we are people, so it's about like personal connections and bonds and trust and [00:40:00] having authentic exchanges.

[00:40:03] Danielle: But at the same time, the fact that I understand that I'm a designer. Partly, but I'm also really, I don't like the word expert because I think it means not much. But I am really dedicated and trying to be as up to date with what's happening in the sustainable jewelry world. And where these two things meet is around their products and supply chains.

[00:40:35] Danielle: And for a lot of people, especially before I'm having this more one-on-one meeting, either online or face-to-face, but like having this more direct, honest conversations, it's really hard for them to understand like, would you be able to, , comply with the regulations? And I'm like, I'm not a legal expert.

[00:40:58] Danielle: I can help you, I can guide you, I [00:41:00] can try and set up recommendations or things like. But I'm not a legal person. If you need legal advice on sustainability, you would probably need to hire a lawyer or find someone that has expertise in law.

[00:41:15] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:41:15] Danielle: If you need help with logistics, I can, again, I can guide you because I have some sort of understanding, but I'm not a logistic master.

[00:41:25] Danielle: But I am wearing both hats of a designer or product development or understanding the products and supply chains and where they are, how they are structured and the sustainability aspect. So it's a a bit more holistic perspective on things. And for a lot of people it's really hard to understand because like if I'm not helping, like are you a carbon emission expert?

[00:41:50] Danielle: Can you calculate for us like da da? No. Like, no. So I think this is a bit tricky sometimes with [00:42:00] certain people. Mm. But on top of that, it's all of the other personal things that I am. Yes. So it's also about like, trying to balance the fact that I am, am a mother of two small kids, relatively small kids.

[00:42:16] Danielle: I love them, of course, and I wanna spend time with them. So I don't want them to spend many hours and days with babysitters or things like this. I don't believe in that. This is not why I brought them. It was my decision, should I have kids or not? And I decided that I want. So they're here for me to, to educate them, to spend time with them, to teach them about the world from my perspective, hopefully to, insert memories and.

[00:42:51] Danielle: Narratives into them, like what my parents have taught and inserted in me. So I think this is also [00:43:00] something that I'm, I'm trying to find the right balance because I think it, it's a bit more like a women's challenge of trying to balance career and family, which I know it's a topic that has been discussed a lot, but I think it is starting to shift. my partner for example, he works a lot like we all do, but he, from his perspective, he would be, he would much prefer to be a stay at home dad. And he loves spending time with the kids and it's like his deepest wish and passion. Mm-hmm. But I think that a lot about like also where these things impact each other because they, they are impacting each other. And, and I think this is where it becomes a bit a bit complicated because I want to be good in all of the hats that I have in all of the positions that I have.

[00:43:52] Speaker: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:53] Danielle: And not all the time you can do that. You need to make some compromises [00:44:00] and, understand that there are some limitations.

[00:44:02] Danielle: But yeah, I don't know if I explained enough my, my point, but

[00:44:09] Anne Muhlethaler: I think that what we also touched on last time, we talked on top of having the jury and the product development knowledge and, and expertise as well as sustainability. You also lecture.

[00:44:25] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:44:27] Anne Muhlethaler: You teach.

[00:44:27] Danielle: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:29] Anne Muhlethaler: And you love writing.

[00:44:30] Danielle: Yes,

[00:44:31] Anne Muhlethaler: that's correct. And you have a great newsletter on Substack, which people can also access if they follow you on LinkedIn. And I remember you feeling a sense of how do I explain all of the things I do and how do I honor all of my interests when I'm constantly getting a feedback message, not from everyone, but from [00:45:00] some people that my life would be easier if I just picked one over the others.

[00:45:08] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:45:09] Anne Muhlethaler: How do you feel about this at the moment?

[00:45:13] Danielle: I feel it's still challenging to a certain amount of people to grasp that you can try and. And try aim to be good at, at all of them. But I think I'm trying to be really emphasizing on the people that appreciate actually the fact this multifaceted perspective.

[00:45:40] Danielle: Because I think that, for example, with the universities that I work, I think for them it's definitely extremely meaningful that I have strong ties with the industry because I bring to the students and also now working with one of the universities on also trying to work with the educators and try to [00:46:00] implement more into the syllabus and like the program.

[00:46:02] Speaker: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:03] Danielle: So the fact that I'm reflecting what's happening in the industry and trying to bring it into the program, into the teaching is really meaningful. It's a perspective that neither one of the team members can bring. And, and I think that when you find the right people to work with that they appreciate this, it's really nice.

[00:46:27] Danielle: But, but yeah, I think that what we discussed prior to this recording, the, the fact that in general like our world really appreciates the fact that you choose like a focus and then you become like really an expert, specialized. You narrow your scope of research, you narrow it, narrow it, narrow it, narrow it, and you can find people that are doing a lot of different things these days.

[00:46:54] Danielle: But the majority would still be, you become like a [00:47:00] project manager. And then the next role you would have is like a specific project manager of a specific. Department, then it gets narrow and narrow and narrow. And maybe just if you get to the c suit, positions you get to see like the, the, the broad overview Sure.

[00:47:18] Danielle: Of, of how things happen. But I think that especially when we we're talking about sustainability, it's so strange of trying to believe that you can implement sustainability by a narrow perspective. Things would be sustainable only when you understand that things are interconnected. When you look at the bigger picture.

[00:47:46] Danielle: I mean, it is, built out of small actions that are directed towards specific targets and specific aims. But if we talk about like. Reaching the goal of being [00:48:00] sustainable, which again, like it's too vague. I know, and it's confusing and it's been overused and all of that. But still the point of reaching, a point where we are balanced with planet, humans, ecosystems, cultures, communities, indigenous cultures, everything is, is a holistic point.

[00:48:23] Danielle: You know, it's not just about carbon emissions, it's not just about health and safety in the factory. It's about all of the things combined together. So it's actually makes more sense to, to be multifaceted. It's sure. It's just like, it's not the common things, the common jour professional journey that we, we see, and I think this is where some people that I spoken to said it might be just easier for you.

[00:48:55] Danielle: Instead of passing through this really long tunnel that I [00:49:00] described prior and not knowing the way, maybe if I would've chosen wearing just one hat, it would've been either shorter, clear, more straightforward journey.

[00:49:16] Anne Muhlethaler: Sure. But I think you just dropped the mic metaphorically a couple of minutes ago because it's not everyone's path to become an expert or a specialist and to focus narrow down.

[00:49:29] Anne Muhlethaler: We also need people who have a broader vision to help us lead toward the goals that we want to hold. It's, it seems absolutely essential, and it seems like it completely makes sense for someone like you to go through the various iterations and explorations that you did so that you are able to hold.

[00:49:51] Anne Muhlethaler: Those various things, those various notions together and help move clients to either develop a [00:50:00] vision of their own or help them toward each of the experts that will bring them to the impact, to the change that they want to make. Not everyone can be a specialist worker, whether it's in a factory or any kind of white collar job.

[00:50:20] Anne Muhlethaler: Especially you in an industry as you've described, who is constantly changing. But I have a feeling and tell me where I'm wrong and maybe you don't. That part of the confusion that people feel is because, like you said, particularly in jewelry,

[00:50:39] Anne Muhlethaler: excuse me, there's a little bit of an echo as well, particularly in jewelry terminology has always been opaque. The supply chain is opaque. I've worked with jewelers, find jewelers before. It's very hard for everyone. The fact that people don't like to answer questions feels like it's very much part of the world of, and [00:51:00] terminology does not feel like it's following or giving, particularly in English, perhaps more than other languages.

[00:51:07] Anne Muhlethaler: I couldn't say. Giving people who want to create change the right semantic tools to even communicate what the difference they want to make. There's a lot of things that make it hard. But taking all of these different hats and who you are now,

[00:51:32] Anne Muhlethaler: what would be the case that you want to make for honoring the truth of following your mind and your heart? To embrace all of these different parts of you to be the impactful partner that you can be. Maybe that was a complicated question, but do you see what I mean? What is the case you want to make here [00:52:00] of how you can honor all of these different parts of yourself?

[00:52:04] Danielle: So the more I think about it I think sustainability is really tied to honesty and authenticity. And since we are in the end working with people, humans, I believe that whoever we are also outside the office or outside our factories or wherever we are based, has an impact on who you are, how you perceive the world?

[00:52:44] Danielle: I mean, like I was passionate about sustainability before my kids were born, but now I'm even wor more worried about it

[00:52:55] Anne Muhlethaler: of course,

[00:52:55] Danielle: because I'm thinking about like, oh my God, what [00:53:00] a mess We are gonna live for them to deal with. I don't want to use like really hardcore words, but I mean, I'm thinking about the amount of either beautiful things that are not gonna exist in the world because we are destroying ecosystems.

[00:53:16] Danielle: The amount of waste, the lifestyle that we are just putting them into, I don't know if it really makes a lot of sense. Jewelry is not gonna solve the world and it's definitely not a necessity. Things that I hear all the time, but I think that I can contribute where I know the, the rules of the game.

[00:53:38] Danielle: Yeah. And jewelry is where I know the rules of the game. And I feel that maybe something is done right in jewelry, then it could be duplicated to other industries. And also I'm a true believer in creating, even if it's a small change, just creating some steps towards positivity. It's clear that [00:54:00] we can't change all the problems in the world in two months.

[00:54:05] Danielle: We are facing enormous challenges. And it's a lot about partnering and collaborations, which is not something common in business in general, let alone in jewelry. But but I think it's a lot about understanding that it's a marathon, it's not a sprint, and it's a, it's built out of small wins.

[00:54:26] Danielle: A lot of hard work and dedication and understanding that we have a long way and we need to re really look at the summit and aim to that and be as less distract distracted as possible by the daily small hassles that we face. So I think the fact that I am a mother as well. Also some other elements within my personality that I'm an expert here, so I'm also experiencing [00:55:00] living in a different culture is something that definitely impacted or impacting my work.

[00:55:06] Danielle: Of course. Also as I shared before, like experiencing like this international program. So I got to see, insights, into different places around the world. Was also something really powerful that I carry with me and it's definitely something that, that is reflected in my work.

[00:55:26] Anne Muhlethaler: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:55:29] Anne Muhlethaler: Thank you so much for sharing that. I didn't think about this before a moment ago, but I remember reading that three or four years ago, a really powerful essay that I will share with you after, called The Polymath Playbook by a wonderful guy called Salmon Ansari, who's based in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and his essay went viral.

[00:55:54] Anne Muhlethaler: The, he's a jack of all trades like you. He was a CTO for a [00:56:00] while. He also writes, he illustrates, he wrote his first children's book which is really wonderful. But I wanna share with you what he shared at the end, because I think for anyone at the who, like you and me, by the way, I didn't wanna insert myself in that, but I, I empathize with your situation because I am also a generalist or a jack of all trade, and I understand how difficult it is for people sometimes to understand who I am and what I do.

[00:56:31] Anne Muhlethaler: But s ended his essay by saying that, and I quote, the world seeks to label us, categorize us, and pack us neatly into boxes. But we are humans. We're not objects. He says, we are viscous. We dance around the lines between solid and liquid. We change and evolve. We ebb and flow.

[00:56:50] Anne Muhlethaler: We shrink and grow and fluidity is the essence of our humanity. And he quotes from a, a writer that I don't know, he says, I live on [00:57:00] earth at present and I don't know what I am. I know that I am not a category, I am not a thing, a noun. I seem to be a verb, an evolutionary process, an integral function of the universe.

[00:57:13] Anne Muhlethaler: And that's by R. Buckminster Fuller. And he ends by saying, follow the rivers that flow within you. How does that resonate for you?

[00:57:22] Danielle: Yeah, I really relate to that. It also resonates, I think with the era that we live in. You know, maybe if our parents started in a specific job or profession and ended in the same one. Like it's clear that our generation and probably the next generations and as well yeah, would change many hats and many positions and maybe many industries as well. And at the same time, whatever was already, you already learned and gained is part of the skills and who you are.

[00:57:57] Danielle: And you can't [00:58:00] disconnect an arm it's all part of the same system. I think that although it might be a bit challenging or hard for many people to face like this more generalistic perspective, I think that if you find people that understand that it's actually a massive. Asset because you can compare things, you can get inspiration from a lot of different points.

[00:58:35] Danielle: You, you maybe can amplify that by collaborating or partnering with things that a bit outside the conventional scope of partnering and so on. Then this can be something really, revolutionary.

[00:58:58] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah, [00:59:00] I think that's the right word. Revolutionary. I think to your point, it's a huge asset to have someone who's got more than one perspective about any topic, especially one, someone like you who's got in depth or who's worked in various areas for enough time to really have expertise. I really appreciate you bringing this topic to the table because I think that it's something, like you said, that's going to touch a lot of different lives. A lot of jobs are changing. Current generation and younger generations are all going to be impacted about how the world of work evolves.

[00:59:42] Anne Muhlethaler: But I think moreover, what I'm hearing you bring to the table as well is calling or what's the best way to say it? Is saying who I am outside of work also matters. [01:00:00] It's, it informs the vision that I have and the work I can do for the people I collaborate with. And it speaks very strongly to me because it says I am bringing my full humanity to the table.

[01:00:16] Anne Muhlethaler: I'm not leaving that essential part of who I am, and I'm bringing my, I'm bringing my full self to, to this work that I wanna do with you. And it feels very beautiful to me.

[01:00:30] Danielle: Yeah, I think that trying to pretend something else is not possible. Like, just this week my daughter was sick and mm-hmm.

[01:00:39] Danielle: You know, I could have canceled all meetings and, me and my partner, we split the day. But I could cancel all meetings during the time that I was with her. And then I was like, you know what, I'm not gonna do that because it means like rescheduling everything might take me to the next year, and what a waste of time.

[01:00:59] Danielle: [01:01:00] So I just emailed everyone in the morning I will be in the meeting. I will participate as much as possible. I will mute myself when my, I'm not speaking so you don't get all the

[01:01:13] Danielle: silly kids conversations. But at the same time, I think that the other side, it might, she might have been distracting a bit, part of the participant's attention every once in a while, but in general it's also for them a possibility to see a different lens of me, you know? Sure. And I don't think it's a bad thing.

[01:01:38] Danielle: I think you need to find the right balance because not every time it, it's appropriate to Sure. Be in this kind of situation. And there might be some. At the same morning I was teaching a class online and it was clearly not appropriate that she would be there. But there, there are some situations where it is, I [01:02:00] think, more flexible.

[01:02:01] Danielle: And I think it's about accepting the fact that, as you say things are fluid and mm-hmm. You know, we are between solid and liquid.

[01:02:10] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah.

[01:02:12] Danielle: So,

[01:02:14] Anne Muhlethaler: you know what you're making me think of. A couple of years ago I attended a luxury innovation summit in Geneva. And I remember meeting this lovely woman called Tal, who's got a beautiful brand called Iota.

[01:02:26] Anne Muhlethaler: She's actually Israeli based and she had a young baby and for whatever reason, I can't remember the details, she couldn't leave the baby at home and she won an award and it made me, I can't believe it. It made me really emotional then and just remembering it to see a young woman entrepreneur of an impact business in the fashion and interiors industry, show up with her baby on her hip and her arms and grab that prize [01:03:00] makes me wanna cry again.

[01:03:01] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah. I think that perhaps the reason this conversation is interesting is that we are starting to see a new era where women are trusting or like yourself, what's the best way to say this? I dunno if it's trusting or daring or seeing examples or letting each other show up in the fullest part of their humanity, meaning naming what's happening for them, whether it's what's going on at home, what's happening in their bodies. Two different people I know in the past week have said, Anne, I'm so sorry. Can we postpone? I'm really feeling unwell. I've got terrible period pain. And I was like, of course. Please don't let me drag you out of bed if you can be, you know, resting and have a hot water bottle.

[01:03:53] Anne Muhlethaler: But this would've never happened even 10 years ago to anyone near me. And so [01:04:00] perhaps the conversation we're touching on is, is shining a light on the fact that now is a time where we can, or we should consider letting ourselves being our fullest human, including the things man or woman or non-gender conforming, bringing that part of us, at least in some spaces, instead of forcing ourselves to.

[01:04:28] Danielle: Fit into the

[01:04:29] Anne Muhlethaler: box. That meat box.

[01:04:30] Danielle: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because I think it definitely impacts who you are, your experiences, your skills, your profession. For sure. Yeah. And we also saw what happens when companies are not diversified and what, when they're not taking into consideration, like multiple faceted points of view.

[01:04:51] Danielle: It's a risk. It became a risk. We're living in a global world. All parts are connected. And understanding that maybe like this [01:05:00] multi, multi perspectives or points of view can be an asset and not something that, puts like sticks in your wheels.

[01:05:13] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that this may be the right place for us to end this conversation.

[01:05:22] Anne Muhlethaler: And before we do that, I wanted to ask you,

[01:05:29] Anne Muhlethaler: and this is a moment of reflection, I wanted to ask you what surprised you about our conversation today? Or what's something you'd want to, to take away?

[01:05:43] Danielle: I think that on my daily work, I focus a lot on the problems and challenges and issues with my industry. My industry. It's not mine, but like the jewelry that I'm part of, you can

[01:05:58] Anne Muhlethaler: say my, I think people will [01:06:00] understand.

[01:06:01] Danielle: But actually I need to remind myself sometimes. Why I chose to be part of this industry and what's so special about it. And just like our conversation now about even the Luva heist or you know, my trip to Africa and like where I met craft and all of that. For me, it's a massive reminder of what's so special about this, this industry and why it matters not just to me, to a lot of people and why I think there are still a lot of consumers who are choosing to, to buy and support the jewelry industry and it's on us to, um, to make it better.

[01:06:44] Anne Muhlethaler: Thank you so much. That's a very resonant thing to say. I have to admit that yesterday I did a whole interview with very, very, very, very bad cramps following a surgery I had a month ago. Oh. And that I [01:07:00] didn't dare say to my guest in fear of sounding unprofessional, even though my whole uterus was actually pulsating and cramping and very, very unwell.

[01:07:12] Anne Muhlethaler: And I can't say that I wish I had done something different because we had had technical problems before. So I think this would've been one too many things, but it's reminding me that that I can also consider, where do, where can I honor myself in a way where that's appropriate a little bit more.

[01:07:35] Danielle: Yeah. I think it's, it's again, like where you are most honest and then it's hard for people to to say, you're unprofessional if you're just like,

[01:07:46] Anne Muhlethaler: sure.

[01:07:46] Danielle: Honest.

[01:07:48] Anne Muhlethaler: Yeah. But I'm a little bit older than you and I was very much formatted to sort of ignore any issues, particularly related to period and like cycle and et cetera, et cetera.

[01:07:59] Anne Muhlethaler: [01:08:00] Yeah. And I think it's, I'm gonna take this away as work in progress,

[01:08:06] Danielle: which is always better than being stuck in the place.

[01:08:10] Anne Muhlethaler: Exactly. Danielle, it was such a pleasure to connect with you again, and I hope that everyone listening will have greatly enjoyed discovering you and and working with us with this question that, that you brought about how do we honor the, the various parts of who we are.

[01:08:26] Anne Muhlethaler: And for anyone who's curious about your work ahead of your masterclass, where can they find out more about you? How can they connect?

[01:08:34] Danielle: so I would say LinkedIn is a good place. I'm trying to be as active as possible there. Mm-hmm. I also, as you shared I'm trying to post, almost once a week, Substack post where I talk about things that are connected to my work and personal things that I come up with.

[01:08:55] Danielle: I'm also active on Instagram, although my Instagram is a mix of, it's a [01:09:00] multifaceted Instagram, mixing work and, personal things. So you would also see my dog, maybe my kids, maybe some other random things. But as we said, like everything is connected. I have a website as well and emails, but I think like direct conversations, probably like these three channels are the.

[01:09:21] Anne Muhlethaler: Wonderful. Thank you again. I'm very much looking forward to our next time meeting. Probably it will be in December for the masterclass. Mm-hmm. More on that very soon. Until then, have a lovely rest of the day. I too, so appreciate the time we spent together. Much gratitude, for you to make the time to talk to me and to explore, these topics together.

[01:09:44] Danielle: I'm really happy for the stage, for the opportunity for the exchange. Always happy.

[01:09:49] Anne Muhlethaler: Thank you so much. See you soon. Have a great rest of the day.

[01:09:53] Danielle: Bye.

[01:09:54] Anne Muhlethaler: Bye.

[01:09:55]