How do we stay aligned with what truly matters in order to create the life we are dreaming of? with Oana Budica

Oana Budica on the Metta Interview

[00:00:05] Speaker 7: Hey, I'm Anne, and this is the Metta` Interview, intimate Conversations with brilliant humans, contributors to Le Trente. Named for the Buddhist practice of meta, also known as Loving Kindness. This show brings unconditional friendliness to how we meet each other, rather than traditional interviews showcasing expertise.

[00:00:29] Speaker 7: Each episode gathers around a question that feels alive for my guest at the moment of the recording. The goal here is for us not just to explore what they know or what they do, but really more who they are, their stories, their questions, the perspectives that shape their work.

[00:00:49] Speaker 7: Think about it as eavesdropping on, uh, an exchange between friends. It's recorded so that you get to see all the hands, gestures, the thoughtful [00:01:00] poses, although sometimes I cut out some of them. And all of those perfect imperfections that make us human.

[00:01:09] Speaker 7: I deeply believe that all of us carry one or several questions throughout our lives. Questions that our work, our relationships, our choices are really an attempt to answer now by building each conversation around one of those alive questions. I hope to make this the little black dress of podcasts timeless rather than trendy.

[00:01:33] Speaker 7: And yes, what you may not know about me is that I spent many years in fashion. Most recently at,

[00:01:40] Christian Louboutin

[00:01:41] Speaker 7: and so when I reach for that particular metaphor, there's a little lived experience behind it. What I learned in those years is that the most enduring things in fashion and in life are the ones conceived with genuine care about the people who it's for, [00:02:00] and that's what I've tried to bring to this format.

[00:02:01] Speaker 7: Care for the listener and care for the person sitting across from me who has agreed to touch on questions that matter, to show up with a certain vulnerability, and I hope that you feel that in this and every episode. Now, today I'm delighted to be sharing this meta conversation with another brilliant human Oana Budica

[00:02:25] Speaker 7: we were introduced a while back by a common friend, and we had the pleasure to get to know each other slowly. As Oana joined several of my salons, we found a lot of common ground in talking about values, integrity. Presence and meditation. So it felt quite like the natural next step for me to invite her to offer a masterclass for the talent, which is coming up on March 14th.

[00:02:52] Speaker 7: So do look it up. The link is in the show notes, but let me go back a step and introduce her properly. [00:03:00] Oana Budica is a Chinese medicine physician. Acupuncturist and herbal medicine practitioner based in Geneva, Switzerland, originally from Romania, she has spent over a decade moving between clinical practice and serious contemplative training, studying acupuncture and classical herbal medicine across Asia, and completing rigorous meditation retreats in Theravada monasteries in Thailand and Myanmar.

[00:03:25] Speaker 7: For Oana, these are not separate pursuits, she sees Chinese medicine and meditation as complementary sciences of perception, both requiring the same refined attention, the same capacity to observe what is subtle without distortion. In this conversation, we travel from the forests of her Romanian childhood all the way to a cave in the Himalayas, and back to a clinic in Geneva where she sits with patients navigating burnout, anxiety, and other ailments. With over a decade of clinical experience, [00:04:00] her work focuses on the relationship between emotional states, nervous system regulation, and physiological balance. Her Alive question, the one she brought to our recording, is one that I think many of us are quietly living with too.

[00:04:15] Speaker 7: How to stay aligned with what truly matters in order to create the life we are dreaming of? I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Happy listening.

[00:04:28] Anne V Mühlethaler : Oana. It's so lovely to see you. Thank you so much for being on the meta interview.

[00:04:34] Oana Budica: Thank you so much Anne, and thank you for having me as a guest today.

[00:04:38] Oana Budica: I'm really honored to be part of your amazing Le Trente studio.

[00:04:42] Anne V Mühlethaler : Thank you so much. So before we dive in, I would love to ask you this question. What is bringing you joy or excitement these days? And it doesn't need to be anything big. It could be anything that comes up to your mind. [00:05:00]

[00:05:00] Oana Budica: Hmm. That's a, it's a very, very good question because I just came back from my winter holidays and that was the theme of my holidays where I actually reconnected.

[00:05:10] Oana Budica: What bring with, what brings me joy. And I think number one is time in nature. I really love nature and I think nature is the greatest healer. And just, you know, simplicity, being outside, breathing fresh air, drinking clean water, spending time with people I love and people that inspire me. So these days just, you know, friendship and nice relationships.

[00:05:33] Anne V Mühlethaler : Now I would like to ask you this annoying thing for many of us.

[00:05:38] Anne V Mühlethaler : Could you introduce yourself for our audience?

[00:05:41] Oana Budica: Sure. So my name is Oana Budica, and I'm originally from Romania, but I'm based in Geneva, Switzerland, and I'm a Chinese medicine physician. I work as an acupuncturist and herbal medicine practitioner in a clinic here in Geneva. And the rest of the time when I'm not in [00:06:00] the clinic, I am very passionate about yoga philosophy and meditation.

[00:06:05] Oana Budica: So I practice meditation and dharma and, yes

[00:06:11] Anne V Mühlethaler : and yes. And if I'm correct, you're also a big lover of swimming and you do something called free diving. Am I correct?

[00:06:22] Oana Budica: Yes, that's true. That's that's another passion of mine that I recently discovered, well, like two years ago. So I love free diving because it's really a way to relax your nervous system in a very fast way, actually.

[00:06:39] Oana Budica: Mm-hmm. So I started to do that before, initially because I was afraid of water and I didn't know how to swim really well, and I was like, I need to get over this fear, you know, like, I don't, I need to, I need a challenge in life to make me feel complete, right? So I started to free dive and I discovered through that breath [00:07:00] work and how that helps us to activate our sym, parasympathetic nervous system in a much faster way.

[00:07:06] Oana Budica: So it's great for anyone who has the audacity and the chance to do it. Go for it. It's really great.

[00:07:13] Anne V Mühlethaler : Hmm. Yeah, I'm I've never tried, but I have to say this, this does feel tempting when you talk about it.

[00:07:21] Oana Budica: Yeah,

[00:07:22] Anne V Mühlethaler : so , at the core of the Metta Interview, I try to bring out in my guests some of the multiple facets that makes them who they are. And so the next key questions are really there for me to try and, you know, tease stories out of you, not necessarily stories that really tell everything about you. Right? What, what we want is just to give people a feel for, Oana.

[00:07:50] Anne V Mühlethaler : So I'd love to hear you tell me, is there. A childhood memory that you can think of in this moment that you feel connected [00:08:00] to and that still makes you smile?

[00:08:04] Oana Budica: Childhood memory. Hmm. It, this just popped up in my mind right now, was a memory when I was picking mushrooms with my grandfather in, in the Romanian forest.

[00:08:18] Oana Budica: And it was such a joyful free time and silent and simple and just, I dunno, I can even feel the smell of the mushrooms being picked and yeah, it just makes me happy. It's, I think in Romania we are very much connected to, to nature and plants and herbs and I think that's also one of the reasons why I, why I chose to practice Chinese medicine later on.

[00:08:42] Oana Budica: Because like for instance, in my family we had a lot of connection to plants and herbs and. It just brings me back to that moment even I can see the herbs hanging in my grandmother's kitchen and the smell of mushrooms drying out on the table. Yeah, [00:09:00] that's it.

[00:09:00] Anne V Mühlethaler : Oh, that's amazing because I'm feeling the picture come together in my mind as you tell me that story.

[00:09:07] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yeah. What was your grandfather like?

[00:09:10] Oana Budica: He was an adventurer. He was an adventurer and he was wearing, always a leather hat and he was fun. He was making jokes with everyone and generally loved to love to have lots of adventure in his life. So, yeah, I miss him greatly, actually.

[00:09:26] Anne V Mühlethaler : Mm. He sounds a bit like Romanian Indiana Jones.

[00:09:29] Oana Budica: Yeah, a little bit like that actually. The, the hat was like Indiana Jones style. Yeah, pretty much. So glad

[00:09:36] Anne V Mühlethaler : I ask you that question.

[00:09:37] Oana Budica: He was putting the feather on and everything, so. Yeah.

[00:09:41] Anne V Mühlethaler : I'm sure he'd be very impressed by your free diving, by the way. I can see a connection between you somehow between these two things.

[00:09:50] Anne V Mühlethaler : How funny it

[00:09:51] Oana Budica: could be. Yeah.

[00:09:53] Anne V Mühlethaler : So this is funny because the next question that I had for you was, you know, [00:10:00] you may have answered it in parts, but I'm sure there's another connection here. What's an early experience in your life that you think has planted the seeds for the work you do now? And perhaps we've already found a connection, right?

[00:10:17] Anne V Mühlethaler : A thread between nature, herbs, connection to your grandparents, but perhaps we can turn our attention to meditation or yoga philosophy.

[00:10:32] Oana Budica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:32] Anne V Mühlethaler : Where did that thread or that seed get planted, do you think?

[00:10:39] Oana Budica: Yes, I actually know it very well because it was really, for me, a turning point in my life. And, yeah, so that I was 19 years old and I was already practicing a little bit of Kundalini yoga, but literally, like I was doing things that I was finding on YouTube and following the classes, and then I [00:11:00] had a book or two, but nothing very serious.

[00:11:03] Oana Budica: And I was already a little bit passionate about Oriental philosophy, but more like a global idea, right? I, I didn't go so deep into the subject. And I remember I was traveling in the south of France visiting a friend of mine who was at the time practicing a lot of vi vi vi personal meditation. And I don't know what happened.

[00:11:24] Oana Budica: We had an argument about something and I was trying to prove a point to him, and he told me that I had a huge. And when he told me that it really hurt me a lot and I remember crying for a few days and I didn't know really why was it, why was it bringing so much unsatisfactoriness inside of me?

[00:11:44] Oana Budica: Mm. And so I think from that moment on, I really wanted to find out what is ego and what is this kind of thing that is inside of me that is not fully satisfied and what is inside of me that always thinks grass is [00:12:00] greener. And yeah, I just had this big question of in my mind to find out what that is.

[00:12:05] Oana Budica: And actually that brought me on a decade long journey trip to Asia, where I really deepened my mind into understanding what that ego was. So, yeah, that was the adventure.

[00:12:22] Anne V Mühlethaler : I'm so glad I asked that question. Okay.

[00:12:27] Oana Budica: Like you always do, you are the best at asking the, the, the right questions.

[00:12:31] Anne V Mühlethaler : Thank you so much.

[00:12:32] Anne V Mühlethaler : That feels very nourishing as a compliment.

[00:12:35] Oana Budica: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:36] Anne V Mühlethaler : Now we have, we have various passions in various facets of, of, of interest in your life, when did you first consciously start to make a move towards Chinese traditional medicine and acupuncture?

[00:12:56] Oana Budica: So yeah, that all happened all, all at the same time, [00:13:00] you know, because since I was already interested in yoga philosophy, then I, I traveled to India and I met my, my teacher, my mentor, and he talked to me about Chinese medicine and I started to study Shiatsu, which is a Japanese Zen massage therapy.

[00:13:16] Oana Budica: And Shiatsu is based on Chinese medicine theory, including the acupuncture, meridians and everything. So then I traveled with my teacher and I was her teacher assistant in the shiatsu courses that we were giving where we were based in India. Then we traveled to Korea and to Japan together.

[00:13:33] Oana Budica: And then I thought to myself, okay, since I already know all these things and all the theory of Chinese medicine, I might as well go and study the full Chinese medicine degree. So I went to China and I studied in Shanghai, and yeah, I'm still a student now. I'm learning all the time. And I think medical medicals studies never end really.

[00:13:52] Oana Budica: So, yeah.

[00:13:54] Anne V Mühlethaler : Mm. How long did you stay in Shanghai?

[00:13:59] Oana Budica: Well, it was very [00:14:00] funny because, I started my degree right before COVID started, and so I was stuck outside China during COVID. So I was in Shanghai for a year, and then the rest of the period I was actually outside because we couldn't go back to the campus.

[00:14:15] Oana Budica: Mm. So, and then I had to transfer to Switzerland and yeah. Long story short, it was, a year.

[00:14:20] Anne V Mühlethaler : That must have been really awful. Especially with being so close to your goal, right. To, to deepen your studies, which I can feel is something that's, that was important to you.

[00:14:30] Oana Budica: Yes. I mean, it was, it was difficult, but I was lucky enough because, I have already been to Shanghai, to the same university before for a few advanced acupuncture trainings. And then, I went to Taiwan and I spent six months in Taiwan practicing with a, with a lovely doctor that I really, really liked.

[00:14:47] Oana Budica: And then I lived one one year in South Korea, so I did a lot of clinical training and I didn't feel like I'm missing that part. 'cause luckily there were other countries that were open during COVID. So I did my clinical training in different hospitals and [00:15:00] following different doctors. So yeah, that worked out really, really well.

[00:15:03] Oana Budica: And also I did another internship in the us so yeah, it just allowed me to travel more, basically.

[00:15:12] Anne V Mühlethaler : Hold on. If I remember correctly, you worked in the US with someone who really,

[00:15:20] Anne V Mühlethaler : I don't know how to formulate the question with a teacher that was very important . Am I right? If so, please tell me that story. I.

[00:15:26] Oana Budica: That's probably my teacher, Dr. A Lewis, who is doing, who is my teacher in herbal medicine. And yeah, who is um, I mean he holds this Institute of Classics, synesthesia medicine, of which I'm also a diplomat. And, basically it's a lineage of herbal medicine based on a special pulse diagnosis.

[00:15:45] Oana Budica: So he received all his teachings from his teacher and his teacher from his teacher. And it's basically a family lineage, which is the way pretty much all classical Chinese is being, Chinese medicine is being passed on. And so I had the, [00:16:00] the privilege and the good karma, I may say, to meet him. And this is the style of, herbal medicine that I practice as well.

[00:16:09] Anne V Mühlethaler : Mm. Now I know some people who are going to listen to this are gonna say, I'm sorry, you said, what kind of medicine did you say Pulse?

[00:16:19] Oana Budica: You know, Chinese medicine, it's a complete medical system, and we have different ways to diagnose the human body through the pulse mainly, and also through your symptoms obviously, but also through your tongue. So, specifically in the pulse, I mean obviously I, the pulse is being taken on your radial artery right here, so obviously we can feel the beating of the heart, right, and the movement of blood in the radial artery.

[00:16:45] Oana Budica: But more than that, we are not only looking for the. Cardiac frequency or the rhythm of the heart, if it's slow or fast, et cetera. We are also looking for different pathological mechanisms of each organ. So we, we have basically [00:17:00] three positions, and each position relates to a certain organ and it has a certain depth.

[00:17:05] Oana Budica: So we can see, for example, if your stomach has too much humidity or too much fire, if your kidneys have too much cold or if there is any imbalance in this specific organ systems. And based on that pulse diagnosis, a trained practitioner will then prescribe you herbal formula, which is a mix of five to 10 herbs that come from the Chinese pharmacology.

[00:17:30] Oana Budica: And the formula is matching the pulse, basically, right? So after you drink this medication, then you, you will see a change in the pulse and of, of course, in the symptoms as well.

[00:17:42] Anne V Mühlethaler : That was exquisitely clear. And it's funny because I have been going to a Chinese medical doctor and I've never asked them to explain anything to me. I just give them my, you know, wrist.

[00:17:52] Oana Budica: Yes, yes, exactly. So I

[00:17:54] Anne V Mühlethaler : asked the question 'cause I couldn't explain it to anyone, right?

[00:17:58] Oana Budica: Yes, yes. And many, many [00:18:00] patients come and then they show me their whoop and it's like, oh look, it's that much. You don't need to, you don't need to listen to my pulse. I'll show you my whoop app. I'm like, wait, we are not looking just for that. So, yeah,

[00:18:12] Anne V Mühlethaler : sure. That's so funny. Now, if you could describe your professional journey as a kind of journey, it could be, I don't know, a flight, a road trip, a cruise, a dance.

[00:18:27] Anne V Mühlethaler : How would you describe. Your professional journey.

[00:18:31] Oana Budica: I think it was from the moment I found out that I wanted to be a therapist and to dedicate my life to, you know, easing the suffering of others. I think it was, like a very smooth cruise, but sometimes there were storms on the sea. Okay. So including the c And also, you know, like I, I was traveling a lot.

[00:18:51] Oana Budica: I was moving a lot. I lived 10 years in Asia and at the same time, I was studying Chinese medicine. I was also practicing so I can support myself [00:19:00] financially. And also I was doing some meditation retreats in monasteries. So, you know, I had to combine all of that at the same time. And somehow I managed, but obviously it wasn't super easy at times, right?

[00:19:12] Oana Budica: Because I was a student and I was a traveler and I was not in my country and I was learning, I was learning something that was very new to me, right? Chinese medicine is very different. We don't learn how to think, in five element. And in yin yang philosophy very quickly. Right. So, yeah.

[00:19:29] Anne V Mühlethaler : Mm-hmm.

[00:19:32] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yeah, that sounds intense. But I, I had a feeling that your journey would be water related somehow.

[00:19:38] Oana Budica: Yeah. Hence the free diving. No, it's still in the water.

[00:19:43] Anne V Mühlethaler : I, I don't know. I still felt your connection. Yeah. Somehow to that and to some kind of element now, over the last few years, and it could be in the meditation realm or the yoga [00:20:00] philosophy or or around acupuncture and Chinese medicine.

[00:20:04] Anne V Mühlethaler : What is a skill that you've learned that you've acquired that still surprises you, that you didn't expect to develop up?

[00:20:14] Oana Budica: I think Pulse diagnosis, to be entirely honest with you, I'm always, I'm always so, so humbled and surprised even myself after, you know, clinical training and knowing that this is the me, this medical system, I still get very surprised when just by touching the pulse I can, I know the symptoms of the patient in front of me, even if they don't tell me.

[00:20:36] Oana Budica: And then when I ask, they tell me, oh, how did you know that? So I, it still amazes me every, it's the weirdest thing.

[00:20:42] Anne V Mühlethaler : It feels like magic. Yeah. It's crazy. As a patient, it feels really weird. It's genuinely, it's like, are you looking into my soul? Yes. And I don't mean to, I don't mean to put down the Western medical system because it does wonderful things, [00:21:00] but I feel like there's just a very the Chinese medical system feels like there's somehow a deeper layer.

[00:21:09] Anne V Mühlethaler : To it, to it,

[00:21:11] Oana Budica: mm-hmm. I mean, yeah, sure. It's, it is just a different system, right. We have Western medicine, which is a biomedical system which sees everything separated from one organ, one symptom.

[00:21:23] Oana Budica: And then there is the Chinese medical system, which is a holistic sys system where we, we consider the body, the mind, and also the environment that affects us, right? So diseases or whatever, imbalances in the body can come from climatic factors, you know, like it's windy or it's cold, or it's humid outside, and that affects our body, right?

[00:21:44] Oana Budica: So there's this relationship to, to the environment. I think that's pretty much the, the difference.

[00:21:52] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yeah.

[00:21:53] Anne V Mühlethaler : Now, if your life were a book, what do you think the current chapter [00:22:00] would be called?

[00:22:04] Oana Budica: The current chapter would be called Building the Life You Dream of While Staying Integral. ,

[00:22:14] Anne V Mühlethaler : Could that be the

[00:22:15] Oana Budica: name of the book rather than the name of the chapter? Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah.

[00:22:18] Oana Budica: Yeah. Maybe that's the Yeah, it's true. Yeah.

[00:22:23] Anne V Mühlethaler : Sorry for our listeners, I, I would not just say that to anyone. I feel like. You know, we did a pre-interview, Oana and i and, and I have done some work together. So yeah, I felt so. What about this current chapter where, where you are at? 'cause 'cause 'cause you are in the weeds of something new.

[00:22:40] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yes. Completely. Yeah. Yeah. Now one of the moments in your life that I know was really incredibly important is how you met your, teacher, the one with whom you studied for a number of years in India.

[00:22:54] Anne V Mühlethaler : How did you meet your teacher and tell us how this part of your story [00:23:00] unfolded.

[00:23:02] Oana Budica: Yeah. So you remember when, when my friend told me I had a big ego and that was the first time I went to India, and then I came so.

[00:23:12] Oana Budica: On my second trip to India, I was 21 years old and I went on a small pilgrimage in, in the north of India, in the Himalayas. And I met my teacher there we were, I was with a friend of mine who was an artist back in the days. Also from Romania. We were traveling together and I met my teacher.

[00:23:34] Oana Budica: He was actually living in a, in a cave in the mountains. And I was also camping with my friend there. And, I met him there. And the moment I met him, I knew he's gonna be my teacher and the person that taught me everything about yoga, philosophy and meditation and everything. And, yeah, this was really the moment where everything started for me in, in a very, how to say, in a very smooth and deeper way.[00:24:00]

[00:24:00] Oana Budica: And I traveled with him in many countries across Southeast Asia, and we live together in different Buddhist monasteries where we practice meditation. Yeah, this place where we met in the Himalayas also, was a place where we would come back every year for our yearly silent retreat, with him and other disciples of the specific teacher.

[00:24:22] Oana Budica: And, we were basically camping in the cave at 3,500 meters high in the Himalayas. We were surrounded by like snow peaks everywhere. And, I mean, it was, it was just incredible. I think that's really the. The most powerful memories that I have from my life because it was so simple and so pure, but at the same time, not, not easy, you know, like we were high in the mountains.

[00:24:47] Oana Budica: We had to hike for seven hours with all the food in the backpack. And, it was it's, there was not many things around except Hot Springs, which were awesome to have. And, that image, I, I will [00:25:00] never forget. I think the Himalayas full of snow and you're just sitting in a hot spring and I mean, yeah, don't get me wrong, we were like super high tech yogis fully equipped with nice camping gear, but we were spending our time in silence and meditation and yeah, it was just incredible.

[00:25:19] Anne V Mühlethaler : Mm mm. Now tell me about the lineage that your teacher comes from.

[00:25:28] Oana Budica: So my teacher basically teaches pure yoga philosophy. And I mean, if you want really the name of it, it's called nara, which is na yoga, which is in India. It's known as the very pure Ashtanga yoga, right? Which is based on the philosophy, which puts more emphasis on the mental aspect of the practice.

[00:25:51] Oana Budica: Of course, the Asana and all the body, the postures are very important, right? Because you need to keep this physical body healthy in order for you to be able to meditate. [00:26:00] But, yeah, his lineage and his teacher, he met his teacher actually where I met him. So he was my teacher is not an Indian person, but his teacher was Indian and he was living in that area where the cave is, and, and he was training my teacher in, in the way of meditation more.

[00:26:15] Oana Budica: So that's what I learned from him as well.

[00:26:19] Anne V Mühlethaler : Hmm. And I think that, I want to make sure that I ask that question for our What was it like to live in the cave? Because I can feel the hot spring, but what was the cave like? This is a bit of a disconnect for me. Help clean the picture.

[00:26:35] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yes,

[00:26:36] Oana Budica: I totally get it. It was a cave where we had enough space for like four people. So, and then everybody had their own little corner and we had like nice equipment that we brought up with us mattresses and, you know, sleeping bags and like really a nice mountain camping experience. Just that you don't have a tent but you have a cave.

[00:26:54] Oana Budica: And then we were cooking on the fire. So as you come out of the cave, we constructed like a small roof and then [00:27:00] we covered it with like, branches of the trees. And then, you know, we made in such way that we have, we are protected from the rain and everything. And we were cooking on the fire and we had everything, you know, like pots and pans and everything.

[00:27:11] Oana Budica: But it was pretty simple. I mean, you just eat basically like rice with protein coming from beans and mug beans and red beans and some fish if it was a very nice day. And yeah, we were just learning dharma and meditating. A few times a day. You know, like I always say, it's not about the quantity, but the quality of doing it.

[00:27:33] Oana Budica: And it was just very silent and still, and I mean, for sure, I think there were animals around and, we didn't hear, we didn't have any encounter with any kind of animal, but mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a special place. It's actually a very famous pilgrimage place in India, so a lot of people go there for, you know, like devotion reasons.

[00:27:52] Oana Budica: And if they, if they glove meditation and yoga philosophy, they would do a pilgrimage like that once in their life. Right. So,

[00:27:59] Anne V Mühlethaler : [00:28:00] mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:28:04] Anne V Mühlethaler : I know it's gonna be incredibly reductive for me to ask that question, but I will, what's the one, what's the most precious thing that, that you either, what's the most precious thing? That you found out about yourself during those times?

[00:28:31] Oana Budica: I think the most precious thing was that I would still, regardless of the materiality that is around me, I would still be very happy with who I am because and also this reflection, I, I, I carry it with me up to today because I had that experience where you don't your happiness doesn't depend on material things and positions that surround you.

[00:28:54] Oana Budica: Right. And that no matter what would happen, and if [00:29:00] you take away all my material possessions away from me, I would still be happy and I would still know how to live my life with with joy and contentment. Right. So I think that was one of it, to realize that actually we don't need much to be, to be fully joyful.

[00:29:14] Anne V Mühlethaler : Mm-hmm. I really appreciate that you share that.

[00:29:23] Anne V Mühlethaler : Echo your sentiment. I feel like having practiced meditation for such a long time and so regularly with such wonderful teachers and practiced fasting as well.

[00:29:36] Oana Budica: Mm. Well,

[00:29:37] Anne V Mühlethaler : you develop a different relationship with your thoughts about what you think you need about the stories we tell ourselves about what we need.

[00:29:48] Anne V Mühlethaler : And I think that the gift for me would be establishing a dis, a distance between the reaction and the possible response in myself. The, [00:30:00] oh, but I need that. And going,

[00:30:01] Oana Budica: yes,

[00:30:02] Anne V Mühlethaler : no, you don't.

[00:30:03] Oana Budica: Yes.

[00:30:03] Anne V Mühlethaler : And this kind of like softening of, of knowing that you've done so well with so much less.

[00:30:12] Oana Budica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:30:13] Oana Budica: Completely. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:17] Anne V Mühlethaler : So what would be a metaphor for the way that you are moving through the world right now?

[00:30:25] Oana Budica: Maybe I'm also a little bit influenced by the fact that there's the new Chinese New Year coming up soon, which is gonna be the fire horse. So I was just imagining that horse moving like a horse who is like also jumping over the hurdles. Right. And because what, what I'm doing right now is, it's a quite, quite a big transition phase in my life and I feel like there are some hurdles here and there, like I guess in everyone's life when you are trying to, to change something or you are in the middle of producing beat, I dunno, in business or personal life or whatever it is.

[00:30:58] Oana Budica: So yeah, I was seeing myself [00:31:00] like, like a fire hose that jumps over hurdles.

[00:31:04] Anne V Mühlethaler : That's wonderful. Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Mm-hmm. And before we move into the big question that's alive for you, one more question to unveil one of the multiple facets that makes Oana, what's something that people might be surprised to learn about you that we haven't already talked about?

[00:31:27] Oana Budica: I really love singing and, I almost made a career as a singer when I was a kid. I was learning to play piano and I was actually singing, so I had a team behind me and I, I sang in front of like, I dunno, 16,000 people when I was nine years old.

[00:31:48] Oana Budica: And I was like, going for it, but then somehow life took another turn and I changed my mind and I didn't do it anymore. But yeah, I, I still love to sing, so I have a guitar and [00:32:00] I, I do sing every now and then just to, you know, let, let it out. But yeah, that was almost a career path.

[00:32:10] Anne V Mühlethaler : That's incredible. I'm so glad I asked the question.

[00:32:18] Anne V Mühlethaler : So now Ohana, you and I have talked about this before and the reason why I ask my guest to go and, and, and find a question that feels alive is, is also as a mean to, to share who we are, not just as experts, right? Who are presenting themselves to the world in a specific light, but also to share something that I will say is probably more human.

[00:32:45] Anne V Mühlethaler : 'cause. I deeply believe that all of us hold two or three questions that we try to answer throughout our lives, through our actions, our work, our relationships. Mm-hmm. And so tell me what is the question that feels alive for you right [00:33:00] now?

[00:33:02] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yes. It feels like it calls back to that book title that we explored earlier.

[00:33:09] Oana Budica: Yes. Yes. A little bit. Yeah.

[00:33:13] Anne V Mühlethaler : And tell me how did this become, how did this become something you were aware of, that this was a question that was important to you?

[00:33:25] Oana Budica: So I think it's also, I mean, not only personal, but I work in a clinic, so I see patients every day and seeing my patients, you know, come in with symptoms such as anxiety, depression, insomnia, burnout, you know, these are just to name a few. Right? And I find that besides the, the, obviously the physiological aspect of it, right?

[00:33:48] Oana Budica: I mean there, there, there is things that happen physiologically in the body, but I think a lot of, a lot of symptoms also come from the fact that people. Go [00:34:00] a lot for performance and they forget themselves in, in this path towards a perfectionism and approval and, living outside of this integrity with what is important to them.

[00:34:14] Oana Budica: So I, I, I speak a lot to my patients about personal values and this being integral to, to your values. And I mean, of course it sounds like very vague and a lot of us don't know if we haven't learned about it, right? And so what I say, it's always that your values are basically what animates you, right?

[00:34:33] Oana Budica: We, we, all of us wake up every single day for animating these values that we have, right? Whatever it is. Maybe you, you wake up and you're animated by going to take care of your family, your kids, by going to work, work on your business by, I dunno, generosity, sharing, intimacy. All of these things are, are what gives purpose to our life. And I see a lot of my patients having issues just because, you know, [00:35:00] maybe they wanted to say no and then they said yes, or they wanted to say yes, and they said no. So there's always this contrast between the situation that is presented in front of you and the values that you have, and sometimes you don't take care of that.

[00:35:12] Oana Budica: So, I think we all have some dreams and we all want to, we all have a vision of a perfect life and we can go towards that and we can imagine that while we are staying connected to things that are important to us.

[00:35:33] Anne V Mühlethaler : What does this question means to you in this moment?

[00:35:37] Oana Budica: I think, you know, we all live in a society and we all have relationships with either at work or with friends and family. And sometimes we have to compromise a little bit in order to have peace in our relationships.

[00:35:51] Oana Budica: And so I think, personally, I always, even if I have to, you know, not always be integral to the values, even if I [00:36:00] have to compromise a little bit, I know how to stay equanimous or keep my mind still. To not have reactivity, even if I have to say no to some things that are important to me. So obviously sometimes you need to, to juggle and compromise according to the situation that is presented to you.

[00:36:19] Oana Budica: But I think for me, meditation, it helped me to, to have stillness in that. Right. So instead of your mind being reactive because you had to do something that normally you wouldn't do, you would have stillness. Right? So you would accept the situation because the greater goal, right? Or the bigger vision.

[00:36:34] Oana Budica: So I think for me, it has always been the case, right? Because meditation, it's not about distancing yourself from hard decisions, and it's not about being indifferent and it's not about accepting everything as it is. That's not what meditation is about. It's about not having reactivity of the mind, which is why we feel most of the time uneasy.

[00:36:58] Oana Budica: Hmm. [00:37:00]

[00:37:01] Anne V Mühlethaler : It's interesting and I completely hear what you're saying. But part of what I feel when I hear you tell me about your work and your story is also perhaps an underlying worry or fear that you could, even though you have the tools, and I know that you are dedicated to the tools

[00:37:24] Oana Budica: mm-hmm.

[00:37:25] Anne V Mühlethaler : That even when you have the tools, there's always that worry that you too could forget to stay.

[00:37:34] Anne V Mühlethaler : This is a gesture that my friend Libby does. It's funny that it came back to me that you stay aligned For anybody who's listening to this, I'm making a gesture with my hand to kind of show a, a sense of alignment. Is it possible that there's also an underlying fear in you?

[00:37:51] Oana Budica: I wouldn't call it a fear. I would call it more right effort.

[00:37:55] Oana Budica: I would say that, you know, there's always, there can always be so [00:38:00] much situations and the mind is a very it's a very complex thing, right? So even you, if you meditate for 10 years, that doesn't mean that you cannot lose it because you got angry and because continuously you have frustration and it's something that you constantly need to put effort.

[00:38:16] Oana Budica: I would say it's an effort that brings you to effortlessness at some point because of repetition, right? Because you've done the right thing. And so it's part of the path as well. Right? And it's not based on fear. I would say it is based on knowledge because you know that certain mental tendencies can arise and so you take care to not let them arise, right?

[00:38:40] Oana Budica: Like reactivity, for instance. Or, you know, being angry or frustrated or et cetera.

[00:38:46] Anne V Mühlethaler : Hmm. I find that, and this is something that I learned from some of my teachers that,

[00:38:57] Anne V Mühlethaler : and I just wanna clarify this, for anybody who [00:39:00] may misunderstand that anger and frustration are not just there to be pushed away, but these emotions are there to show us something about our condition, about our situation, whether it's internal or external. And that there's wisdom to be gained and, and knowledge to be gained if we work with it, rather, rather than just react.

[00:39:23] Anne V Mühlethaler : 'cause what I'm fearful people would understand is, oh, I just need to push away. Mm-hmm. The, the reactions. But the reactions are there to bring you some information about what you're feeling, I'm thinking about this. Mm-hmm. Because I know that right now the world is very fraught, that there's a lot of worry, there's a lot of wars and anguish and, and, and bad situations around the world.

[00:39:48] Anne V Mühlethaler : And a lot of people may feel what they think is righteous anger and frustration about whatever situation is, is, is unraveling in front of them. [00:40:00] How do you feel about Right effort or right action in that context.

[00:40:09] Oana Budica: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:40:10] Oana Budica: Yes. I mean, I can only say from the perspective of, of dharma and yoga philosophy is that of course the, this. Oh, you have certain mental qualities that come up in the case of anger, for instance, you want to observe, of course, and you, you don't want to suppress, right?

[00:40:29] Oana Budica: But also you want to be able to not let it happen again, right? Meaning that you understand why were you angry, you have an object, and you, you were angry at it, and where is it coming from? And the antidote to that is acceptance, right? And I think, of course, we all don't like what is happening in the world, at this moment.

[00:40:49] Oana Budica: But, on a personal level, having anger is also not very, very healthy, neither for your mind and neither for your body. Like in Chinese medicine, it relates to the liver and to [00:41:00] the gallbladder. And so, instead of, instead of anger, then you would have the antidote of that, which is acceptance. Accepting that anger is not good for your body and for your mind, right?

[00:41:12] Oana Budica: So meditation is what? Actually calms down all this mental turbulences, right? This is the nature of the mind is to pop up with all this, you know, frustration, anger, jealousy, delusion, all of these things. And meditation is like a, like a mental shower, which just puts that all down. It's not, it's not looking away from it.

[00:41:33] Oana Budica: It is working through that to give you wisdom and to give you a tool to know how to act on it when it happens.

[00:41:43] Anne V Mühlethaler : Hmm.

[00:41:44] Oana Budica: It's more like transformation, I would say. Right? It's a, because also anger in the end, it's an energy, right? It's something that goes through you and you can transform that, right?

[00:41:54] Oana Budica: Like in Chinese medicine, it's, it is like fire, right? It's a lot of young, a lot of movement. Yes. Right. And you [00:42:00] can transform that. You can transform it, I dunno, maybe creativity, right? Sing and write and dance, things like this, right. As well.

[00:42:11] Anne V Mühlethaler : Oh, absolutely. I was thinking about it from a, an activist's point of view as well.

[00:42:19] Anne V Mühlethaler : I saw Jane Fonda the other day, being interviewed on, on television and

[00:42:23] Oana Budica: mm-hmm.

[00:42:24] Anne V Mühlethaler : And she's, she's doing some wonderful thing and has been an activist for all of her life. And I find that, so the channeling of the anger into something positive is important, but you are right. I think one of the things that you are pointing to, which a lot of us do not think about, and it is such an important thing to consider, is that emotions are meant to go through us.

[00:42:48] Anne V Mühlethaler : We're not meant to hold onto them, and somehow humans are built in such a way that we can hang on to mm-hmm. Big emotions, all of [00:43:00] them, most likely the negative ones. Mm-hmm. And these then indeed, sort of calcify. And take root into, into the body. I'm, I appreciate you pointing to the, the way that anger can become nefarious for, for our inner organs.

[00:43:20] Oana Budica: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:20] Anne V Mühlethaler : When you see your patients and you speak to them about personal values,

[00:43:30] Anne V Mühlethaler : what do you think is the hardest thing that, and is maybe an impossible question to answer, but what do you think is hardest for them to, to reconnect, to realign, to come back to what matters?

[00:43:47] Oana Budica: I mean, I had, just before I went in holidays, I had this patient, that came in, telling me that he has burnout and that he feels completely empty.

[00:43:58] Oana Budica: That he has nothing [00:44:00] if you take away his work from him. He works in finance and yeah. And he said like I'm in, medical leave and I have nothing else in my life. I'm empty. And so I, I started to talk about values and I, I could see how difficult it was for him to, to connect to what I was saying because of specifically this emptiness that he feels inside of him.

[00:44:21] Oana Budica: Mm-hmm. And then after a few sessions, we started to talk and we, we got to, to have a really nice, progress. And then he realized, he said that actually I feel empty. And I think the value that I'm missing is to have something which he called divinity, like something to which to look higher to. Like he said, you know, I was brought into a family that told me that, you need to just go and work and be a banker and, you know, nothing else matters.

[00:44:49] Oana Budica: His parents were atheist and he had no place to, to actually develop his spiritual side. Right. So I as after many discussions, we realized that actually it's very important to, to [00:45:00] fill up this, this emptiness comes because you don't actually have a spiritual practice or, or something that gives sense and meaning to life.

[00:45:07] Oana Budica: Right. And, so I think this is the most difficult one. When I say values, people are like, what is it exactly? So then I start to give examples and then slowly, slowly, oh yeah, family is important to me. Oh yeah, my work is important to me, but is there only that in life?

[00:45:23] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yeah. That's a beautiful example.

[00:45:27] Anne V Mühlethaler : And for some reason. I am feeling the emotion. Mm-hmm. It's incredibly sad. I mean, it's incredibly sad. Yeah. And I feel a lot of empathy for this person. Now, the way that podcasts work, of course, is I don't know who's gonna be listening. I don't know where people are who are going to be finding this interview.

[00:45:56] Anne V Mühlethaler : And I just want to, to say it's very [00:46:00] precious that you brought this example that you and I had never talked about before.

[00:46:04] Oana Budica: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:05] Anne V Mühlethaler : Because if you zoom out from where you and I are not far from each other, you know?

[00:46:13] Oana Budica: Yes.

[00:46:13] Anne V Mühlethaler : But in the, in the center of Geneva in Switzerland, which is a very rich, affluent western country,

[00:46:23] Anne V Mühlethaler : you could think that a. Spirituality is actually not, not a topic that's particularly important because people are doing well and

[00:46:31] Oana Budica: mm-hmm.

[00:46:32] Anne V Mühlethaler : But of course when people ask me why I am doing the work that I'm doing and why am I establishing Laton a social learning studio, where do I talk about meditation and meta and benevolence and loving kindness and invite people like you who do multiple things and who also have a connection to a strong spiritual lineage and a contemplative practice.

[00:46:59] Anne V Mühlethaler : It's because I come [00:47:00] from here and I was, I saw a lot of disconnection. So I, I, I still witness, and I'm sure you do too, and it exists everywhere, but I, I think that perhaps part of my mission is to say it's here too. Let's not start somewhere else in the world. Let's start where, Ooh, look at that alignment.

[00:47:24] Anne V Mühlethaler : Let's, let's start where I'm from. Let's start, let's, let's loop that circle. Come back to the, to my origins. And I always joke, with my friends, well, wouldn't the world be a lot better if all the bankers were happier if they, if they did find a sense of deep alignment and benevolence and kindness? I mean, I know half of our financial services are gonna be sorted by AI but again, if the people who are building AI are feeling better in themselves, are [00:48:00] feeling nourished the opposite of what you're describing, right?

[00:48:03] Anne V Mühlethaler : The opposite of emptiness. If, what would the world look like if our financial place was operating from inner riches?

[00:48:20] Oana Budica: Oh yeah. That's a good one, Anne. It's a, it's a name of another book. It's your book.

[00:48:29] Anne V Mühlethaler : Let's see about that. Wow. Yeah. I feel, I feel a, a lot of empathy for this disconnection because for most, yeah, that's the word I operated from a sense of disconnection between, but also having also grown up in a relatively atheist environment.

[00:48:50] Oana Budica: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:50] Anne V Mühlethaler : First believed that the mind was separate from the body and that the mind was more important. Mm-hmm. That what was in the mind was really what was [00:49:00] valuable, and that work was that way forward. It's a, it's a very Protestant ethic, I would guess. Not that I'm a specialist.

[00:49:08] Oana Budica: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:10] Anne V Mühlethaler : And then it took years and years and years of noticing breakdowns in the body and illness and autoimmune, my body's screaming at me for many years. Mm-hmm. For me to finally come back to saying, oh, maybe I need to go inwards to see if, if something is, is calling for my attention, and, and it was totally. How do you feel, how do you feel is one way that anyone listening could perhaps practice connection with themselves or with their body?

[00:49:45] Anne V Mühlethaler : What would be something small and accessible that someone can try for themselves?

[00:49:54] Oana Budica: I think, and I always tell to, to my patients, three minutes of breath work [00:50:00] every day will take you a long way because it's a moment of stillness. It's very beneficial to your nervous system. And it's also a way to slow down, right?

[00:50:11] Oana Budica: Because in our fast paced modern world, we are eating fast. I know walking fast, working fast. Everything is fast, fast, fast. And I think breath work, and especially focusing on the exhales, right? So you can inhale for four seconds and then exhale for six or eight and depending on your lung capacity, just to slow down.

[00:50:31] Oana Budica: And that's super accessible. I mean, it's not like you are going to do it for half an hour, it's three minutes. Right. Breath work. And I think also put playing, paying attention to doing things slower. Right. Chewing your food, eating slow, walking slow, not rushing because you're not gonna change the world or your life by saving one minute.

[00:50:55] Oana Budica: Right? It's, we, we are way too fast. And I think that's also [00:51:00] part of the disconnection. Right? And another one, I think, I mean. The opposite of this connection is connection. So that's one connection to yourself. But I think connection to the others is so, so important also in the world of ai, where we are just more and more distancing ourselves from one another.

[00:51:20] Oana Budica: So, you know, connecting and trying to, to build meaningful relationships and just simple things, smiling to another person, opening the door for, for, for someone, you know, the small, gestures that we, we kind of forget as we become more and more, individualistic and focused on ourselves only. Yeah.

[00:51:40] Oana Budica: And also of course, meditation. I think if we can take a few moments and, and just close your eyes and sit with yourself and, you know, bring a hand on the chest, the hand on the belly. See how you're breathing, see where there is tension in the body. Just doing this body scan is very, it's easy and also very [00:52:00] relaxing.

[00:52:01] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yeah. What I find utterly fascinating is every single time someone tells me about breathing, I breathe better. Isn't it crazy?

[00:52:12] Oana Budica: Yes.

[00:52:13] Anne V Mühlethaler : It reminds me to breathe better. And so I think that this is, I really hope this has felt like a cue for you listening to take a deeper breath in and deeper breath out.

[00:52:23] Anne V Mühlethaler : And this got me the idea of asking Oana, would you do me a huge favor? Would you record, and we don't need to do it today, but a short three minute breath practice for our community, and that we can test it and add it to the show notes because that way we are also giving you, you just click the link, get the example, follow the cues.

[00:52:46] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yeah. One of my teachers said that the breath is the language of the nervous system.

[00:52:52] Oana Budica: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:53] Anne V Mühlethaler : And. I think that if we can just double check, check for, check with our [00:53:00] breath and just reset our nervous system, we're, we're doing a lot for ourselves.

[00:53:05] Oana Budica: Completely. Yeah. With so much pleasure. I think breath work, it's so, so, so great.

[00:53:10] Oana Budica: There's so many ways to, so much space to actually improve your, your lung capacity and, you know, bring more oxygen into the blood and oxygenate your brain and that's how you are going to regulate your nervous system. It's the best. So, yeah. With pleasure. Let's do that.

[00:53:27] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yay. Oana, perhaps what we can do to close is

[00:53:31] Oana Budica: mm-hmm.

[00:53:32] Anne V Mühlethaler : To share a moment of reflection. I have a couple of questions I can ask you.

[00:53:40] Oana Budica: Okay.

[00:53:40] Anne V Mühlethaler : So the first thing could be what surprised you in our discussion?

[00:53:49] Oana Budica: The easiness to which you actually make the person feel so connected to themselves and how you bring the past and the present [00:54:00] together. It was for me, really fascinating.

[00:54:03] Anne V Mühlethaler : Oh, thank you so much. For, for me, I have to say, I loved, loved and could not ex, I could not have expected the story about you and your grandfather in the, in

[00:54:15] Oana Budica: the

[00:54:16] Anne V Mühlethaler : forest

[00:54:16] Oana Budica: of

[00:54:16] Anne V Mühlethaler : Romania.

[00:54:17] Oana Budica: I, I really didn't expect you were, you were asking about the, the past and Yeah. All, all this like, you know, what was the metaphors and how you see yourself going through life now? This is just so beautiful. I feel like it does bring up some childish, childish energy from us and then it becomes, I dunno, you become joyful about talking about yourself.

[00:54:39] Oana Budica: Right. Because like I said, for me it, it isn't easy. So it is like, oh, okay, there's some playfulness. Yeah.

[00:54:49] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yes, of course. For many of us, I know it's not for everybody, but for many of us, it talking about ourselves is a chore. And it's a, it's, it's a misalignment, right? 'cause you know, you really wanna [00:55:00] talk about your work and what you do, but you also feel really uncomfortable.

[00:55:03] Anne V Mühlethaler : Well, I'm so happy that, that this felt,

[00:55:06] Oana Budica: yeah, thank you. It was very, very sweet. Super nice. I, I really enjoyed and I could talk for another two hours and Yeah, it's, it is very nice. Very. You are a great coach. Me too. It's therapy. It's therapy.

[00:55:20] Anne V Mühlethaler : Well,

[00:55:20] Anne V Mühlethaler : I want to, to thank you so much. For making this space, for indulging me in, in this format, for the, for the conversation. And I want to announce to our listeners that Oana is also going to be delivering a couple of masterclasses online and in person in Geneva to go deeper, particularly around yoga, philosophy and meditation, which are important to both of us.

[00:55:45] Anne V Mühlethaler : We come from different lineages and there's a lot of echoes in our practices and I'm really, really excited about this coming up. So thank you so much. Is there anything I need to add? Maybe we can close on a, on a [00:56:00] moment of silence and taking a breath together. How does that feel?

[00:56:05] Oana Budica: Definitely, yes. Perfect.

[00:56:07] Oana Budica: Thank you Anne. And thank you for having me. And thank you for what you're doing with Le Trente Studio. I think it's an amazing project and initiative and we have so much to learn from you and the way you, you concoct your podcasts and your masterclasses and how you bring people together. For those who are listening, I've been to some of her salons in, in Geneva and I've always made such amazing connections and yeah.

[00:56:34] Oana Budica: And she's a, she's an angel in Geneva.

[00:56:38] Anne V Mühlethaler : Mm, that's so sweet. Thank

[00:56:39] Oana Budica: you. And she cooks super well as well.

[00:56:42] Anne V Mühlethaler : Yeah. It's funny you should say concoction 'cause I feel like we have a connection with herbs. I could just see myself in a previous life with a pot and lots of herbs in it. How funny. So shall we close our eyes?

[00:56:56] Anne V Mühlethaler : Do you wanna lead us into just one minute of breathing? [00:57:00]

[00:57:01] Oana Budica: It's true. So take a deep breath in, fill up your chest with as much as air as you need, and breathe out completely with your mouth open.

[00:57:18] Oana Budica: And one more time all the way in. Fill up your chest and your upper back, and relax your shoulders and breathe out fully. You can make a sound, let it all out.

[00:57:35] Oana Budica: And we are gonna bring a hand to our upper chest and one hand onto the diaphragm, the upper abdomen area. And we are gonna breathe into our hands softly and letting the breath settle as it is, not trying to change anything. Just feeling and thanking this moment. [00:58:00] To thank yourself, to be grateful for taking time to listen and to enrich this beautiful day.

[00:58:25] Anne V Mühlethaler : Oh, thank you so much, Oana. That was beautiful. Much gratitude for you, for your work, for the light that you shine for your beautiful face on my screen this morning.

[00:58:38] Oana Budica: Oh, thank you. Anne, same thing.

[00:58:40] Anne V Mühlethaler : I'm completely going to ask you about singing next time I see you, by the way.

[00:58:44] Oana Budica: Yes, we can do, we can do a mantra singing circle actually.

[00:58:48] Oana Budica: That

[00:58:48] Anne V Mühlethaler : would be fun. That would be amazing. Yeah, absolutely. I'll put all of the links for people to, figure out how to connect to you. In the show notes and I will end on wishing you a beautiful, [00:59:00] beautiful rest of the day.

[00:59:01] Oana Budica: You too, Anne. Thank you. And looking forward to see you soon. Bizo.

[00:59:05]