How do we weave authentic narrative threads to support a brand voice in an age of AI-generated content?

Salt & Sage: The Metta Interview

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[00:00:06] Anne V Mühlethaler: Hi. Hello, and welcome back to the Metta Interview, generous conversations with brilliant humans. I am Anne Muhlethaler and I'm your host. Today I'm speaking with the dynamic duo behind Salt and Sage Storytelling Manfreda, or Freddie, Cavazza and Felicity, Flea, Hawthorne. Both are former journalists who bonded over a shared dislike for what they call meaningless marketing bs.

[00:00:35] Anne V Mühlethaler: And they also share a communal love for clarity, brevity and honesty. Freddie brings decades of business journalism experience, including time at the Daily Mail City desk, whilst fleas, background spans, magazine, sub editing and production work. Five years ago, they met through Instagram of all places.

[00:00:56] Anne V Mühlethaler: Freddie slipped into fleas, dms. [00:01:00] She was looking for help for a big uh catalog project for one of her clients. What started as a single collaboration revealed a very complimentary skillset, which evolved into a thriving relationship . Through Sold, and Sage, Freddie, and Flea offer, story led copywriting and constant services for purpose LED brands, their philosophy centers on elevating copy to deepen connection with audiences moving beyond what they see as the average content created for content's sake. Today we explore their central question, how to weave authentic narrative threads to support a brand voice in an age of AI generated content.

[00:01:49] Anne V Mühlethaler: We will talk about the nuance relationship with AI as a tool. Their concern about technology, potentially making people feel inadequate about their own [00:02:00] voices, something that I certainly have felt myself, and also why they believe the future belongs to those who can craft authentic narratives that artificial intelligence simply cannot replicate.

[00:02:15] Anne V Mühlethaler: So without further ado, let's jump in to The Metta Interview with Manfreda and Felicity. Happy listening.

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[00:02:27] Anne V Mühlethaler: Felicity, Freddie, it's so lovely to have you here today. Welcome to the brand new Metta interview. Thank you. So before we dive in, I'd like to start by asking you, and I'm gonna ask you both this question, what's bringing you joy or excitement this week? It doesn't have to be anything particularly profound, but what's made you feel tingly and happy in the past few [00:03:00] days?

[00:03:00] Manfreda Cavazza: That's a nice question.

[00:03:02] Felicity Haythorn: That's

[00:03:02] Anne V Mühlethaler: a nice

[00:03:03] Felicity Haythorn: question.

[00:03:04] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah,

[00:03:04] Manfreda Cavazza: you go first.

[00:03:05] Felicity Haythorn: I've had a bit of a, a rubbish start to the week 'cause I've had a cold. But I did manage to get out to go to a yoga class this morning, which was really helpful. It was in the sun. It was a lovely stretch.

[00:03:18] Felicity Haythorn: Because I was kind of, yeah, a bit worried about coming on this podcast. it did kind of calm things down a bit and, and get me outta my head. So I'm always grateful for that. And also everything is a bit hectic at the moment. I've got a lot of children's birthdays coming up, so there's not a lot of time for just sitting and being present and kind of noticing it all.

[00:03:40] Felicity Haythorn: So that was a really nice little, little break to do that awesome.

[00:03:45] Anne V Mühlethaler: What about you Freddie?

[00:03:46] Manfreda Cavazza: Oh, lots of things, but yeah, I guess the main thing is I'm excited, I'm going on holiday next week going back to Italy. It's always a bit stressful in the run up to a holiday, but, I'm excited about that and I've got my [00:04:00] kids at home this week and they're all.

[00:04:02] Manfreda Cavazza: Happy and chilled and just cracking on. And I often get worried that they're not doing enough. But I've learnt that I just need to let everyone just pause for a bit and not rush around. And it's just, we need such busy lives and I'm just, I guess I'm proud of myself for just letting that happen and just letting them sit around and do nothing for mm-hmm.

[00:04:25] Manfreda Cavazza: A couple of days before we go away. Hmm.

[00:04:28] Anne V Mühlethaler: That sounds awesome.

[00:04:29] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah, it's taken me a few years to get to that point where I don't care what they're doing, I'm a bit of a micromanager. Yeah. So it's nice. They, they benefit when I'm a bit more relaxed about that sort of thing.

[00:04:46] Manfreda Cavazza: I'm just getting older and wiser.

[00:04:49] Anne V Mühlethaler: Obviously. Wiser. Wiser. Yes. Now I thought that next you could tell me about a memory that still makes you [00:05:00] smile and a memory from your early childhood. So, who wants to take this question?

[00:05:05] Manfreda Cavazza: A, a memory from an early childhood.

[00:05:09] Manfreda Cavazza: I've got one just popped into my head. It's really weird because I haven't thought about this for a long time. But yeah, I grew up in Brazil Mm. And my dad was a farmer and so we, we lived in the city, but we used to spend a lot of time on the farm, near Sao Paulo and my dad`````, he was, he was very into riding as a kid and he thought that teaching children how to ride was a very important life lesson. And so on this farm, there was this horse called Box that was very feisty, but he tried, he basically taught me how to ride this horse. Mm-hmm. And I remember going. Riding across this field with him and he was on his horse and I was on this little [00:06:00] pony.

[00:06:00] Manfreda Cavazza: And I dunno what happened. I think the pony bucked at something. And anyway, I fell off and I was, I really shocked and upset. I wasn't hurt 'cause I landed on some mud and it was fine. But my dad, I just remember, I remember this so clearly. It's so weird how this memory has just popped into my head, but he basically got me up.

[00:06:22] Manfreda Cavazza: He said, don't worry, you know, we all fall off horses. And he, and he basically said, you, you need to fall off your horse seven times before you can become a good rider anyway. Like, so this is just the first of seven, you know, well done. You've passed the first test sort of thing. And I remember thinking, oh, that's cool 'cause you know how you, you do something and you make a mistake and you think, oh God, I've done something wrong and I'm gonna get told off.

[00:06:44] Manfreda Cavazza: But he was like, no, that's you, that's part of the process. And then we always used to tease him afterwards, like whenever we had any issues with parenting or life or whatever. He'd be like, well, like when my el eldest daughters used to argue a [00:07:00] lot and we decided to sell 'em to separate schools. And I asked him for his advice on that.

[00:07:04] Manfreda Cavazza: He's like, well, you'd never put two horses that fight in the same field. So obviously you have to set 'em just different schools. So yeah, it was that, that's a memory and it's a, it's a nice memory because it's, it's a nice little life lesson

[00:07:18] Felicity Haythorn: Get back on the horse.

[00:07:20] Manfreda Cavazza: Get back on your horse, basically.

[00:07:22] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah. It's

[00:07:23] Felicity Haythorn: a brilliant

[00:07:23] Anne V Mühlethaler: life lesson.

[00:07:24] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:25] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's really special. And I also love the thought about your daughters. You don't put Yeah. Two horses that fight in the same field. Yeah. Like blah. Yeah. When he says it like that, it sounds like a truth. Yeah. No, I've know nothing about horses, so I'll make no comment.

[00:07:40] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah. We, we haven't, then we didn't become horsey people after that. Like I didn't, and then. When we moved back to Italy and, and we didn't really ride much, it was just when we were living in Brazil. Mm-hmm. Um, and there were just horses there. And so it was, you know, but it is just so funny how every single time we ever had serious conversations [00:08:00] with him about anything though, it always went back to horses.

[00:08:05] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's brilliant. Yeah. So this next question I think would be for Felicity, if you're happy with it.

[00:08:14] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:14] Anne V Mühlethaler: So I was going to ask you, you, you, you understand that part of the aim of the Metta interviews to shine a light on our multifaceted selves, which is why I'd like to ask you this, what early experience in your life first planted the seed for what you do now?

[00:08:34] Felicity Haythorn: I think it was just at school. I really enjoyed writing, writing stories and probably some teacher somewhere said, oh, you're quite good at this. And, you know, if, if somebody encourages you, it obviously think, and especially at that age when you are little, I mean, I must have been, I dunno, let's say eight or a bit younger.

[00:08:57] Felicity Haythorn: If someone encourages you at that age, then you think, [00:09:00] oh, okay, this is good. This, this feels good. It's nice when somebody, recognizes you for something that feels true to you, I suppose. I was always an avid reader, always reading. I stayed up, you know, kind of two, three in the morning with a torch.

[00:09:18] Felicity Haythorn: And I think it used to drive my mom mad because I was always knackered the next day. Oh wow. But it was because I was up reading books and. So that's, that's something that I've always, you know, and I think reading and writing really go hand in hand. And I think if, if you just enjoy something, then you just keep doing it.

[00:09:36] Felicity Haythorn: And that was my, my little passion. And I don't think there was any question that I would've ever gone into doing anything else. I always wanted to do something to do with writing. It was either an English teacher or a journalist, or, I mean, I don't know what other options there were really. Mm-hmm. 25 years ago, whatever it was.

[00:09:57] Felicity Haythorn: There's so many more careers you can go into now that [00:10:00] involve writing, I think. But then it was, yeah, it was more limited I think. Mm-hmm. So yes, I think probably being encouraged, I think plants, good seeds and that positivity. Yeah.

[00:10:14] Felicity Haythorn: Do you remember

[00:10:14] Anne V Mühlethaler: the name of the teacher?

[00:10:16] Felicity Haythorn: She was probably my headmistress, Mrs. Nags. She was always very encouraging. And then at secondary school I had an amazing English teacher called Mrs. Henderson, who I'm still in touch with now.

[00:10:26] Anne V Mühlethaler: Oh, that's lovely.

[00:10:26] Felicity Haythorn: She's, she was wonderful or is wonderful. And they were just always very, very nice about my writerly talents, I suppose.

[00:10:36] Felicity Haythorn: It made me feel a bit, a bit special, I guess, you know? , and I think, yeah, it's just that positivity. And I wasn't particularly brilliant at any other stuff, so that was my thing. So I was like, right, I'll just hone in on, hone in on the writing front. So, yeah.

[00:10:52] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's fantastic. Now, I'd love for you to introduce yourselves in your own words as well, and to [00:11:00] to hear you tell our listeners who, who you are, who wants to take this first?

[00:11:06] Manfreda Cavazza: I can go, I go. So I'm, my name's Manfreda, but everyone calls me Freddie. And, Felicity and I co-founded Salt and Sage storytelling about a year and a half ago now. Uh, but before that I was a freelance copywriter and content writer, and before that I was a business journalist. So like Flea, I've been writing my whole life as well.

[00:11:27] Manfreda Cavazza: , and actually like Flea, it was to do with reading and writing at school and enjoying that, that being my favorite subject at school. But I think importantly, when I went into the world of work, I really quickly realized that I didn't want, there were loads of jobs that I could have done with a sort of communications z background that I, that I found wasn't, that wasn't for me.

[00:11:51] Manfreda Cavazza: And, and so I did a bit of marketing and I did a bit of pr and both of those jobs just. It didn't work for me [00:12:00] for many reasons. Just being part of a big corporate company was something that I really didn't enjoy. So I went into, into journalism and I think now that, you know, I've been doing this for two decades, more or less, and now that we've got Salt & Sage, going really well, I think what has attracted me and Felicity to doing this is this sort of anti-marketing thing that we've, that we've sort of established over the years.

[00:12:31] Manfreda Cavazza: And it's a very core part of what we do now, is trying to tell better stories and, and go against the sort of marketing BS that we call, 'cause we just think it's just, it's too boring to, to just talk about things in a marketingy way. So yeah. That's, that's me.

[00:12:51] Anne V Mühlethaler: Thank you so much. But can I ask now, Felicity, how did the nickname Flea come about?

[00:12:57] Felicity Haythorn: My nickname Flea. , [00:13:00] So yeah, I'm Felicity Flea. I think it must have been something to do with my younger sister not being able to pronounce Felicity, but she calls me B, exclusively. So, and all her, anyone who knows her, calls me Be as well.

[00:13:15] Felicity Haythorn: So all her friends call me B and her partner calls me B. Um, my parents call me B, but sometimes Flea. Then all my friends and everyone else I know call me Flea. It's strange. I have kind of two nicknames.

[00:13:33] Manfreda Cavazza: That's cute.

[00:13:34] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah. That's really cute. And it was really when I, I worked at, a big news magazine for years and the editor Giles would never call me Flea.

[00:13:45] Felicity Haythorn: Everyone else called me Flea, but he always called me Felicity. Which was just, I found that quite amusing. You know, we'd all, we all knew each other very well and he still couldn't, couldn't bring himself to call me flea.

[00:13:58] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. Yeah. I [00:14:00] mean, you know, contrarian. And how did the two of you come up with the, with the concept and the name of Salt and Sage storytelling?

[00:14:10] Felicity Haythorn: Um,

[00:14:10] Manfreda Cavazza: this is a good one, I think.

[00:14:12] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah. We thought about it a lot. Yeah. Didn't we? We, we had some other completely different names. But then do you remember the one yarn that thought was Oh yeah. Yarn.

[00:14:20] Manfreda Cavazza: We liked yarn. 'cause that

[00:14:22] Felicity Haythorn: was all about weaving a story and that somebody else had already Yeah. Taken that.

[00:14:27] Felicity Haythorn: So, actually

[00:14:29] Manfreda Cavazza: it was you that came up with it. Felicity,

[00:14:31] Felicity Haythorn: yes. In the

[00:14:32] Manfreda Cavazza: end.

[00:14:33] Felicity Haythorn: I don't know why we were thinking, I was thinking of maybe, I mean, there's a lot of, brands that call themselves, I don't know, Silk and Slate or something like that. So I was thinking maybe along those lines and, but we really wanted it to very much reflect our kind of values, I suppose.

[00:14:50] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah. So, and we both are very coastal. The sea is really, really integral to our kind of lifestyles and what we do [00:15:00] in life and what's important to us. So salt seemed very obvious, I suppose.

[00:15:05] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah.

[00:15:05] Felicity Haythorn: And then salt is actually very purify. And through our work, we, that's what we want to do.

[00:15:11] Felicity Haythorn: We want to kind of pair everything back and get back to the core essence of what people are trying to say without the, you know, the marketing bullshit. That kind of comes with promoting brands, I suppose. Yeah. And then. The sage. We, we are quite kind of wise now. Yep. We have 40 plus years experience between us, so that was, you know, that was kind of bringing it all together.

[00:15:37] Felicity Haythorn: Salt and sage and the storytelling is, we, we tell stories.

[00:15:41] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah.

[00:15:42] Manfreda Cavazza: Sage represents wisdom, which I, which I quite like as in we're, we know what we're talking about and it, it comes from a lot of experience, but also just being quite calm and quite confident and quite bold in the sort of strategies that we come up with for our clients.

[00:15:59] Anne V Mühlethaler: [00:16:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:01] Anne V Mühlethaler: So I, I feel like you've already given us some hints of, but tell us a bit about the philosophy of, of what brought you together at Salt and Sage.

[00:16:14] Manfreda Cavazza: So yeah, we, we found each other on Instagram, which is ironic because we both hate Instagram and try to spend,

[00:16:21] Anne V Mühlethaler: it's super ironic. I know. And also kind of fantastic, but I was sort of

[00:16:24] Manfreda Cavazza: desperately looking for someone to help me with a project a few years ago, a long time ago.

[00:16:29] Manfreda Cavazza: Now it's about five years ago, I think. Yeah. And I just had been following Felicity for a while on Instagram and I needed some help, for some editorial catalog writing and I just thought she'd be brilliant for it because of her surfy background and just lifestyle.

[00:16:46] Manfreda Cavazza: I just thought she'd be, she would get the brand and she. luckily was available and was brilliant and had, and brought a huge amount of expertise that I didn't have mainly to do with production and putting together magazines. [00:17:00] So all the flat planning and all the subed editing and all that sort of stuff she'd done.

[00:17:04] Manfreda Cavazza: She could do it with her eyes closed. So as a team, we were really good for this particular project. And then we just carried on doing other projects. They asked us to do more catalogs, and then we got asked to do other projects together and we just ended up really enjoying collaborating and, being a freelance copywriter can be quite a lonely existence and I personally just really enjoyed having someone else to work together with.

[00:17:32] Manfreda Cavazza: And we edit each other's work and bounce ideas off each other and it just, it just really works as a system. We're also able to. Deliver work quicker, and it's better work because there's two of us writing it and editing it. So it just made a lot of sense to keep working together. And then we decided to start marketing ourselves as, as, as a duo.

[00:17:56] Manfreda Cavazza: And that's when we decided to set up officially together, and that's when we [00:18:00] created Salt and Sage. So yeah, it was very lovely lucky meeting. It really was in my Instagram dms that has flourished and led, led to something really special. And I, and now I just can't imagine not, no. Working with Felicity, you're

[00:18:16] Felicity Haythorn: stuck with me.

[00:18:18] Felicity Haythorn: I, I feel like, you know, we've, we've only just got started. Obviously. We work, we been working together a long time, but I feel like we've got so much to do and so much, it's so exciting. Yeah. I, I just, I wake up every day excited about work. And I definitely didn't have that when I was working, in magazines.

[00:18:37] Felicity Haythorn: I really loved the work, but I always found it stressful dealing with the people, the meetings. Yeah. The big, the corporate side of things, the stress of, having to be there and the deadlines and the, oh God, it was really stressful.

[00:18:53] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:54] Felicity Haythorn: And even now, we, we have a huge, we are kind of overwhelmed with work, which is great, but I [00:19:00] am, it's all so enjoyable.

[00:19:02] Felicity Haythorn: Mm-hmm. And I'm just like, wow. How amazing is, is it to have that? So kind of in your forties when a lot of people are kind of fed up Yeah. With world or, I don't know. My my dad retired recently and he's so happy. I mean, I just, I can't imagine retiring. I'd want, I love working. I really enjoy what I do because it's obviously, it's, you know, putting food on the table, supporting my family. But it's genuinely creative and exciting. So, and growing a business is really fun.

[00:19:35] Manfreda Cavazza: It is really fun, but it's nice that we are doing it together. 'cause I think if we were Oh yeah. On our own doing this individually, I think we would really struggle.

[00:19:43] Manfreda Cavazza: 'cause there's, I think between us, we, there's like energy that passes through the screens. Yeah.

[00:19:51] Felicity Haythorn: Support, you know, it's very scary growing a brand by yourself because you don't know whether you're doing the right thing. Yeah. And it feels, it's, [00:20:00] well, like Freddie already said, it was very, very lonely.

[00:20:02] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:02] Felicity Haythorn: But two of us, there's so much more, yeah. Power there, I suppose. I don't know how people do it on their own.

[00:20:11] Manfreda Cavazza: No. But, but Flea, you were saying the other day that you've noticed a lot more people collaborating and I just think that's quite interesting. I think there's been a shift away from, obviously lots more people now can set up businesses from home and can work from home.

[00:20:25] Manfreda Cavazza: 'cause it's just so much easier now. But I, we've, we've noticed quite a few people teaming up with others to collaborate and do, do things with people because

[00:20:34] Felicity Haythorn: yeah, that's

[00:20:35] Manfreda Cavazza: how you get the, the sort of excitement and the creativity is by actually having that connection with someone else or a group of people.

[00:20:43] Felicity Haythorn: Mm-hmm.

[00:20:44] Manfreda Cavazza: It makes such a huge difference,

[00:20:46] Felicity Haythorn: I think, and sharing the marketing and that kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Because that's such a huge wrench on people's time and energy. But if you can split it up and do it between a team, yeah, that makes life a lot [00:21:00] easier. But yeah, there's a lot more collaboration now.

[00:21:04] Anne V Mühlethaler: like what you said also, Freddie, about Yeah. There's energy that, that. You know, comes through the screen and, and yes, you've got double the amount of energy, right? You're not one, you're two people. Yeah. And it sounds like you light each other's creative fire. Yeah, I think we

[00:21:19] Manfreda Cavazza: do.

[00:21:22] Felicity Haythorn: Um, um, I think Freddie in particular has a huge, um, fire, right?

[00:21:29] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah. I think you are fizzing with ideas. Oh. And you know, she, she suddenly gets this kind of energy from somewhere and she'll be like, well, blah, blah, let's do this. And I'm like, yes. And then it's done. And it's amazing. Oh, that's good to hear. Um, I, I'm so like impressed and you know, in awe of how you can do that.

[00:21:48] Felicity Haythorn: 'cause I think I, I'm a lot slower and go, oh, that's an idea. And I'll think about it for a bit., plod around, no, I don't think it's plotted. And then Freddie's like, it's done. And it's [00:22:00] so cool. I love it. Hmm.

[00:22:02] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's fantastic.

[00:22:04] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah.

[00:22:05] Anne V Mühlethaler: Now, I wanted to ask you this question, and you can both answer it if you'd like. What's a skill that you developed that surprises you?

[00:22:15] Anne V Mühlethaler: Hmm.

[00:22:16] Manfreda Cavazza: What, through working,

[00:22:18] Anne V Mühlethaler: Any skill.

[00:22:19] Manfreda Cavazza: Well, we've learned how to build websites, which I never thought we'd be able to do. Yeah.

[00:22:24] Felicity Haythorn: Learn how to fall in, well, not fall in love with SEO, but to appreciate it. Yeah. And not be afraid of it.

[00:22:33] Anne V Mühlethaler: Very important skill nowadays. Yeah, for sure. Totally. And then I'd love to ask as well, in terms of looking at your career, what's one particular struggle or one particular challenge that you think has the most profoundly shaped your path? And you can both answer the question if you'd like

[00:22:57] Manfreda Cavazza: in work.

[00:22:58] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yes. That's, [00:23:00] I I was gonna say mostly around work. If you think of a personal struggle or a challenge that's helped shape your thinking or changed you?

[00:23:11] Manfreda Cavazza: Hmm.

[00:23:12] Anne V Mühlethaler: Hmm.

[00:23:13] Manfreda Cavazza: So I, I was business reporter for the Daily Mail City desk for a few years before having kids.

[00:23:20] Manfreda Cavazza: And it was a real it was a bit of a surprise move. I wasn't planning to do that, but I got headhunted basically, which was lovely. , so I ended up working on the city desk of the Daily Mail, which is quite a scary place to be. And I was quite young and I felt very inexperienced and as if I shouldn't, like I had total imposter syndrome and I felt like I wasn't good enough to be there.

[00:23:43] Manfreda Cavazza: So I was constantly feeling the pressure of finding good stories and, you know, delivering good stories and making all the right connections to, to find the stories. And then I remember, when I got pregnant, literally panicking [00:24:00] going, this isn't meant to be happening now. I'm not ready for this. But obviously we were wanted to start a family.

[00:24:06] Manfreda Cavazza: I was newly married and it was all going, you know, that's kind of the plan, but it was just, it all happened too soon. And I remember talking to a friend of mine who is now actually the news. Editor of the Sunday Times a wonderful journalist called Becky Barrow. And I just went to her and I said, I dunno what to do.

[00:24:23] Manfreda Cavazza: I'm pregnant and I'm gonna get in trouble for being pregnant. And she was so wonderful. And she just said, don't be ridiculous. You know, you are whatever age I was, you've just got married. This is was bound to happen. You're a woman. Fight for your rights. Like, don't be, don't be silly. So I went to my boss, I explained the situation, and I went off on maternity leave.

[00:24:48] Manfreda Cavazza: And, and basically for me, the big change happened after having kids because everything changed for me as a, as a person. And my priorities changed. [00:25:00] And when I went back to work after having kids, or my eldest daughter, I. Was just on fire, basically because I just knew that I had to go in, do my work, do it well, then go home and deal with my new baby.

[00:25:13] Manfreda Cavazza: And it just made me really focused on the day and it, it meant that I didn't care. Like I, I just, all the sort of thoughts and worries that I had in my head before had gone because it was just my priorities had changed. And I remember my news editor who used to be horrible to me and say mean things about my work, kind of sat me down after about six months of me being back at work post kids.

[00:25:39] Manfreda Cavazza: And he's like, you've really changed. Like, you are really good at this. I'm like, I know, but it was just, it was just a real, like a shift in perspective and priorities that made me just more ballsy, I guess, and a bit more, but just less worried about what people thought of me. And, it [00:26:00] just made me a better journalist, which is bizarre.

[00:26:02] Anne V Mühlethaler: Mm-hmm. That's fantastic. What a great story. How about you, Flea?

[00:26:12] Felicity Haythorn: I think at work I was always very, very shy, really struggled to get my voice heard because I was so worried about getting it all wrong, basically a again, imposter syndrome, I think. Mm-hmm. And I really, I wasn't suited to the big, big editorial meetings where everyone goes around and comes out with their stories mm-hmm.

[00:26:33] Felicity Haythorn: And stuff. And I think I was also naturally very much more really cared about the words rather than the stories. So, I was a, I kind of funneled myself often to subedit land, which is, someone who basically, in my experience, I was a magazine subedit, so I. Kind of create the magazine from cradle to grave, I suppose, and, and make sure everyone's words were amazing so [00:27:00] people would go out to get the stories and then I would make them into really great writing.

[00:27:04] Felicity Haythorn:  And I was quite happy being quiet and, you know, and, and I, I was very sensitive. Like I, I kind of took on board everyone else's feelings. I could, I knew when, you know, when the editor was about to explode, I just, I felt it all so much and I thought, God, you know, why are you like this? You know, why are you so easily bruised like a little peach?

[00:27:26] Felicity Haythorn: Why can I be more like a kind of big robust pineapple, I don't know, with spike something? I dunno. So, and I was very ashamed of myself for being so kind of I don't know, shy and retiring and having these kind of yeah, feelings of, of, I don't know. My, my boss was very. She was quite spiky and she could be really horrible to people.

[00:27:49] Felicity Haythorn: And I, I didn't like it. I just didn't, you know, if a writer couldn't get their work in on time because of whatever it was, you know, be human about it. Mm-hmm. And a lot of shouting in the [00:28:00] office, if, if, if writers didn't, you know, hit their deadlines. And it was because then it affected us subs. 'cause we had the magazine to get out and blah, blah, blah. And I hated that atmosphere. I thought there must be a nicer way of doing this. But I was too scared to actually be nice. So I think I remember trying to be more like her and then it just feeling awful because I'm, I'm not that kind of person to be a ball breaker. Mm-hmm. I just can't do it anyway. So.

[00:28:27] Felicity Haythorn: Kind of by and by. I ended up not going back to that job because I was on maternity leave and I was desperate not to go back into that kind of corporate atmosphere. But again, I thought it was my fault and not, I didn't think, well, there could be other opportunities in there. So I kind of went freelance and then I had a really big personal life changing situation where I split up with my husband and that that was all very kind of dramatic.

[00:28:52] Felicity Haythorn:  And I ended up getting some careers coaching from a really wonderful careers coach who Freddie knows, Sarah Clark. And she, we [00:29:00] did this exercise of just finding out what your kind of superpowers are. And it came out that one of my superpower powers was my empathy and my sensitivity and the fact that I could cry easily because I understood what other people are going through.

[00:29:16] Felicity Haythorn: And I think that I've understood now is why I'm a good storyteller. I can I get what might, you know, what other people are going through or what might have motivated them to do a certain thing. And, and I think that really, really helps with the work that we do.

[00:29:33] Felicity Haythorn: Because, you know, we, we do work with a lot of individuals and female founders, so it helps in that respect, but it also helps with bigger brands.

[00:29:42] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah. Where you have to understand their, their customer. And so if you can put yourself in other people's shoes, then that, you know, that helps a lot with your writing. Yeah. It means you can be

[00:29:52] Manfreda Cavazza: more

[00:29:52] Felicity Haythorn: tuned into humans and

[00:29:54] Manfreda Cavazza: a lot of the feedback that we get with the work that we do is that it, people often say, it's like we've gone inside their [00:30:00] heads and we, we, we literally, we take on their and their personality and their tone and we manage to somehow.

[00:30:11] Manfreda Cavazza: Get right in, in a way that they would've written. And we say we manage to make sense out of things that they're thinking and we untangle the sort of the mess of thoughts in their heads. And that that happens a lot with female founders who are really passionate about what they do, incredibly talented and ambitious, but they don't know how to put it into words.

[00:30:31] Manfreda Cavazza: And Flea iss amazing at that.

[00:30:34] Felicity Haythorn: Oh, thank you. But that, that's, so that's a superpower that's come from something that I kind of thought was a failure, I suppose, or a strength, not superpower, but

[00:30:45] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. Yeah. That what you're saying really resonates with me. There's so many things that I thought were weaknesses that later on in life have turned in, into strength in, in my life. Starting with the fact that I thought that [00:31:00] I couldn't tell a story.

[00:31:02] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah.

[00:31:03] Anne V Mühlethaler: Which I know. Which is really funny. And yeah.

[00:31:05] Manfreda Cavazza: And now that's what you do for a living.

[00:31:08] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. I mean life.

[00:31:10] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm-hmm. Life.

[00:31:11] Anne V Mühlethaler: Um, but I feel like this is, this perhaps is a, the perfect opportunity to move into the second part of our conversation.

[00:31:22] Anne V Mühlethaler: You were just mentioning the work that you do and how with your combined expertise, experience, empathy, you go in and you help entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, female founders, and brands, give voice to what matters to them. Right. And creating thoughtful, content marketing. And when we met last time to discuss, what was the question that was top of mind for you?

[00:31:51] Anne V Mühlethaler: What you shared with me is your big question at the moment is how do we weave authentic narrative threads [00:32:00] to support a brand voice in an age of AI generated content. Does this still feel like the big question that's alive for you?

[00:32:10] Manfreda Cavazza: Yes, we just come up against it so much. And obviously the speed at which technology is changing is quite daunting and terrifying.

[00:32:19] Manfreda Cavazza: But, and it, and it could just be that we were very, we've Flea was saying the other day, it could just be that we have a very trained eye and we can really pick out the content that is AI generated. But I think most people can, can, it's just innate. They can see it, they can sense it, they can hear it when it just doesn't feel genuine and it doesn't feel particularly well written.

[00:32:45] Manfreda Cavazza: And, you know, we're, we're still, we're still massively in demand. Like people e even you'd think that most, most of our clients would just go to AI and get that stuff written by AI and, and wouldn't come to us. But [00:33:00] often they come to us because they're, they're not happy with the AI content and they want more.

[00:33:04] Manfreda Cavazza: And so yeah, we, we think it's still massively important, the humanity, aspect of how to communicate what you are about. And the storytelling is still really key and long may that last. But we, we, we don't, we don't think this is something that's gonna go away and just people are going to be happy with the AI generated content because I just think, I just think it's not good enough yet.

[00:33:34] Manfreda Cavazza: And I don't think it ever will be. I hope not. Anyway, otherwise, we're out of a job.

[00:33:39] Felicity Haythorn: Completely. I think it's also people don't like one size fits all. No anything. Do they, they like to be individual.

[00:33:47] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:47] Felicity Haythorn: They like nuance and they want things to be personalized and, and AI can't do that really. And I was kind of sharing with Freddie last night, it was an [00:34:00] article from in the Sunday Times about how poetry is a really big thing at the moment.

[00:34:04] Felicity Haythorn: People are having after dinner poets and brides and rooms are having kind of commissioning poets to write their own little poems for them on their wedding days and things like that. And, and I think that's where it will go. I think people will be so, you know, what's the word? Not disgusted with the blandness, but brands won't want that.

[00:34:26] Felicity Haythorn: Brands will want really interesting, exciting content to set them apart. Because if we are all putting it all into chat, GP or whatever, it all comes out sounding the same. Yeah. And discerning brands won't want that. So I, I feel like people like Freddie and I, who know how to write and, and can write, you know, almost poetically, you know, we do have a kind of lyricism, I think.

[00:34:49] Felicity Haythorn: And I think that's really important. 'cause it, it is got to do the words, have to do a job if they're selling something, but they can still be pretty. Yeah. And it's interesting, [00:35:00]

[00:35:00] Anne V Mühlethaler: there's a word that you've just used that I think it's become the word of the week for me. Maybe it's gonna become the, the word of the year.

[00:35:07] Anne V Mühlethaler: Discernment. Mm. You talked about discerning brands. Tell me what makes a discerning brand?

[00:35:16] Manfreda Cavazza: So, I think discernment is about knowing, well, wanting to stand out and wanting to be different, but it's, it's also knowing who they are. Like it's, it's about being quite genuine and authentic and, and understanding the roots of what their brand is about, and then communicating that and finding the tribe of people that would be interested in those sorts of values.

[00:35:40] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm-hmm. So I think brands who are discerning are brands who are very particular about maybe their heritage or their history, about their mission. It doesn't have to be an old brand necessarily, but like, for example, with Greenheart, I think of them as a very discerning brand.

[00:35:57] Manfreda Cavazza: This is a, a sustainability [00:36:00] consulting business. And they really understand their niche. They really understand what their customers are going through, and they're really passionate about what they do, and they're, they're passionate about helping businesses become more sustainable. And, you know, all of that context, all of that nuance is so important when, when they do content marketing, like you can't just tell people the same thing again and again and again because it's, it's complex.

[00:36:29] Manfreda Cavazza: And, there's things happening all the time and there's different personalities and there's different sectors that they deal with. And it's just all of those aspects all need to come together and in order to be able to, to, to tell good stories and do good content marketing, even if it's just writing a LinkedIn post, like

[00:36:46] Felicity Haythorn: we,

[00:36:47] Manfreda Cavazza: We write LinkedIn posts for them and it, and it, you'd think it would just take 10 minutes to bash something out like that, but it really doesn't.

[00:36:53] Manfreda Cavazza: Like you really have to think about it.

[00:36:55] Felicity Haythorn: And, and

[00:36:55] Manfreda Cavazza: That's where we come up against the whole AI thing again and again. [00:37:00] It's just not able to take all of that thinking into account. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:06] Felicity Haythorn: And I think it's having respect for the reader as well. Yeah. You know, people shouldn't be fobbed off with, you know, rubbish content.

[00:37:13] Felicity Haythorn: No. Just what we always say content for content's sake. Yeah. Is just, just pointless point people, people want to read good stuff. When I go onto LinkedIn and somebody's taken the time to write a good post, you really, you think about that person and, and it's just, yeah. It's, again, it's creating that energy.

[00:37:31] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah.

[00:37:32] Felicity Haythorn: That connection. The connection. Mm-hmm.

[00:37:35] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. It's interesting because I feel like there's three categories of, of, of writing that I see online at the moment from, not from journalists. There's quality writing, like the kind you're talking about, the one that you produce. There's AI generated content, and then there's what I wanna call internet writing, which is [00:38:00] almost a style on itself where people, founders, creators just give you like a stream of consciousness posts, not really ever forming paragraphs, just, just almost like releasing their thoughts out into the ether. Mm-hmm. How, how do you relate to, to this in particular? How does, I mean personally, do you enjoy this?

[00:38:22] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah. See, that's a really interesting question actually, because I, find that quite a lot in podcasts, although I think they've got a lot better now. But when podcasts first started becoming really popular, I really struggled with the format because it was just. People talking and talking and talking, and it didn't, it wasn't edited well.

[00:38:41] Manfreda Cavazza: You can really tell when a podcast is beautifully edited because it it that you need that structure and you need that sort of thread that takes the person through a bit like a well written article. And, and I remember thinking, this would never be allowed to happen on the BBC, or, you [00:39:00] know, because the BBC have very strict, well, a, they have strict time slots, but it's just the, there is a real art to editing that I think gets missed in a lot of content marketing.

[00:39:14] Manfreda Cavazza: I mean, we Flea and I always talk about the messy first draft, and you, you know about this and like people, you, you have to get it down on paper, but then there's huge amount of work that goes into the editing. Mm-hmm. and I think. Some of what the internet writing that you are talking about is probably just because it's so easy to publish content, whether it's a podcast or a piece of writing.

[00:39:38] Manfreda Cavazza: People don't edit it and it's just, it. The editing is where the magic happens.

[00:39:45] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

[00:39:47] Manfreda Cavazza: And you need skilled people to do that. Even if it's just another pair of eyes looking at it. It doesn't even need to be a brilliant writer that's doing the editing, but just having that person, [00:40:00] you know, read it and makes and sense, check it and check the facts and put some structure in.

[00:40:06] Manfreda Cavazza: And,

[00:40:07] Felicity Haythorn: It applies to both long form and short form content because, you know, a stream of consciousness could be very long form and. You know, but you still need to be guided through it as a reader, I think. And, and that does take skill. Yeah. And, and I don't like this kind of, I feel sad that everyone has to have everything so short and punchy now.

[00:40:30] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah. Online, you know, it's, there's not so much room and maybe on Substack or I don't know, but people want the information quickly and they want it all packaged up for them in little points. And I think that's sad. Like that's, it's nice to be able to sit and read through something someone's cared about.

[00:40:48] Felicity Haythorn: And, but yes, I think it has to be edited. Yeah. No, it's definitely a place

[00:40:54] Manfreda Cavazza: for long form I think. Yes. All three of us here are big fans of long form. [00:41:00] But yes, I think it's the editing that sometimes is lacking.

[00:41:04] Manfreda Cavazza: But then in a way, you know, I don't wanna be too judgy because if people are pouring their hearts out and enjoying the process, it's a bit like journaling.

[00:41:11] Manfreda Cavazza: Like the process of writing can be really cathartic. And I'm not here to say people shouldn't be doing that, but I just think for brands or people who want to really come across as thought leaders or female founders that really want to attract or create a community, I think having a bit more structure. Because the, the thing that I think is often lacking is people forget about who's who the audience is.

[00:41:38] Manfreda Cavazza: They, they just want to write because they're excited about the thing that they wanna write about, but actually you, and this is what we were both taught all of us in journalism school. You have to think about the reader, what's in it for them, why should they care? And that's another thing that I think skilled copywriters can really bring to the table, which [00:42:00] is that, that it's strategic, but also creative.

[00:42:03] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. But, so in the way that you framed your question, how do we weave authentic narrative threads to support a brand voice in an age of AI generated content?

[00:42:15] Anne V Mühlethaler: You use several words that I think are, are important and we probably need to unpack them. What do you mean by authentic narrative? What do you mean by threads? What do you mean by weaving? And for anyone who's listening to us who's not that familiar with brand voice, what is brand voice in, in your mind?

[00:42:34] Anne V Mühlethaler: What does it mean?

[00:42:35] Manfreda Cavazza: Well, what, what is an authentic narrative? To begin. Yeah.

[00:42:39] Manfreda Cavazza: , I mean, everyone wants to be authentic, don't they?

[00:42:41] Manfreda Cavazza: And it's quite,

[00:42:41] Felicity Haythorn: everyone wants to be authentic. It's a real buzzword. it just means being honest and telling the truth almost of your own story. And if you are writing for a brand. Oh, this is why it's so important. We always go back to go, going [00:43:00] back to your foundational messaging, and this is why this is really key.

[00:43:03] Felicity Haythorn: You need to have that all down first before you can even think about being authentic. You know, we work with so many people who have evolved their brands and they've forgotten about really where they've come from, what their roots are. Mm-hmm. So we always want to kind of do this foundational messaging piece first, just getting to know exactly what they do, how they do it, why they do it, you know, why they're better than the rest and who they do it for.

[00:43:31] Felicity Haythorn: Those are the kind of the five main pieces. And then once you have those kind of fairly stable, then you, you can talk a lot more authentically. Or you can, you can talk more clearly, I suppose. Is it being authentic? It's just being clear.

[00:43:47] Manfreda Cavazza: I think it's also to do with the authenticity piece. you could say that a brand, I don't know, a luxury fashion brand that wants to be sustainable could just say, I'm, I make luxury fashion pieces and I'm [00:44:00] sustainable.

[00:44:00] Manfreda Cavazza: But I don't feel like that's enough. It's not, it is true for some brands, but, but I think the authenticity element comes in when you dig a little deeper and you go, how am I sustainable? Why am I sustainable? what were the decisions that went into becoming a sustainable brand? And, and that's when you start unpacking the real thoughts and feelings and stories that become more interesting.

[00:44:28] Manfreda Cavazza: And then, because I think it works both ways, you, in order to try and unpack the authenticity of a brand. You come up with stories that then make that brand more interesting anyway. And then people who might be interested in that brand will read those stories and go, oh, that's really interesting that, you know, we're working with a sustainable fashion brand at the moment.

[00:44:50] Manfreda Cavazza: And she, she says that she, she travels to all the mills and she talks to the people who are making the fabric to then make her [00:45:00] shirts because she wants to like, go and check that it's done in the right way. That the fabric feels right. And, you know, she's so passionate about what she does and she, and just when she's talking about it and she tells the detail, it goes into the detail of what she's doing.

[00:45:17] Manfreda Cavazza: That to me is a story to tell. And that makes her more authentic because. You know, if there are two shirts for sale and they're both just as beautiful, but there's this one that's made by this woman who has traveled to that particular mill in wherever it is to talk to the people who are making the fabric.

[00:45:35] Manfreda Cavazza: I just feel like that's, wow. That just shows real dedication.

[00:45:40] Felicity Haythorn: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:41] Manfreda Cavazza: So it's about, I think authentic narratives are about just digging a little deeper into the what, the how, the why.

[00:45:52] Felicity Haythorn: Mm-hmm. So that

[00:45:52] Manfreda Cavazza: you come up with interesting facts that then turn into good stories to tell.

[00:45:58] Felicity Haythorn: So it's really quite, and [00:46:00] then those are the threads.

[00:46:02] Felicity Haythorn: Mm-hmm. Really, so we always say people should have at least five. I was thinking about this last night. I dunno whether you agree Freddie, but they do, they're quite tied to the values,

[00:46:12] Manfreda Cavazza: the threads. Yes.

[00:46:13] Felicity Haythorn: The threads. Because these are the kind of the bedrock, the, the stories that you can keep coming back to.

[00:46:20] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah. But retelling them in a different way for, depending on what platform you're using or I don't know.

[00:46:27] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah. So and you're asking about what the narrative threads are.

[00:46:30] Anne V Mühlethaler: Hmm. Yeah. So thank you first for answering the question about authentic narrative. 'cause I, I feel like what I'm hearing from you is that it needs to be crafted, but crafted from the reality of why people do what they do.

[00:46:46] Felicity Haythorn: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:46] Anne V Mühlethaler: And throughout you explaining it, I was thinking, yes, it's depth, it's not staying at the surface. Yes. You used the word narrative because it's not just shouting statements about who you are.

[00:46:58] Manfreda Cavazza: No.

[00:46:59] Anne V Mühlethaler: It's, [00:47:00] you craft stories that. Bring people into your world, really. But yes, I, I, I like the words weaving in the words threads.

[00:47:13] Anne V Mühlethaler: And I'd love for you to tell me what makes this a different approach to telling a brand story from what people may be doing currently.

[00:47:26] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah, so the thread's idea came up because we, as we said, we, we, we are literally allergic to marketing jargon. And the words content pillars come up a lot. Or content buckets.

[00:47:43] Felicity Haythorn: Content buckets, content pillars. They're very rigid. Yeah, they're very inflexible. And I think an example we gave was something like, throw back Thursday or something like that. That's what people used to do, didn't they? Yeah. You could have that right. Every Thursday I'll do [00:48:00] something. It just doesn't work because it's, you might not feel like, I don't know.

[00:48:05] Felicity Haythorn: Anyway, that's why where we came up with the narrative threads, which are instead of content pillars Yeah, because they're more flexible.

[00:48:14] Manfreda Cavazza: They're more flexible, and we think they're more creative because if you think about it as a thread, so you have your themes, your topics, the things that you are interested in, the things that you're really passionate about.

[00:48:25] Manfreda Cavazza: But they, they can be told in different ways. So it's just, if you imagine it as threads that weave together to create a tapestry, then for us anyway, it just helps with the flow and the coming up with ideas. And the, the way we, when we work with clients, we do a lot of repurposing. So we will write a long form piece of.

[00:48:47] Manfreda Cavazza: Like an article for a client, and then we'll take some of the threads from that article and weave it into a LinkedIn post or email. And, and we do a lot of that because we, we feel that [00:49:00] often brands attack their content marketing strategy in a slightly backwards way. So they might go, right, we need to do social media, and they'll write loads of posts and then they go, oh, we need to do email.

[00:49:13] Manfreda Cavazza: And they'll write loads of emails. But actually everything is connected. And if you try and link things together with this analogy of the, the threads, then it makes it easier. It actually makes the process a lot easier. And the end result we think makes more sense because at wherever the customer is experiencing the brand, those themes and topics of repeating themselves.

[00:49:38] Manfreda Cavazza: So, you know, whether you're reading a LinkedIn post or you've landed on the website or you've received an email, like the, the words are not identical, but they are talking about the same thing. And it just means that you then communicate this, this, the unified approach.

[00:49:56] Manfreda Cavazza: I mean it's very similar to, it's just the [00:50:00] words version of Desi, of imagery of design. I think. So, you know, if you think about the colors, when, when a brand does a visual brand identity, the colors, the logos, the, you know, all of those things are linked and repeated across all the different platforms. And so why not, why don't people do the same with words?

[00:50:23] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. It's um. Yeah, I love the word visual language. So I think that when we, when we appoint a designer to create a brand feel, we think of the visual language. And I think that because we have direct access to language, we think that we don't need help.

[00:50:43] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm.

[00:50:43] Anne V Mühlethaler: In putting together something cohesive that will explain or express what we're about to the public.

[00:50:52] Anne V Mühlethaler: And it's true, having done it on my own for so many years with Freddie's help, it takes a lot of work to [00:51:00] be considerate. Don't take me as an example 'cause I, I, I think so many people do it far better than me, but, , but I do appreciate what you're, what you're saying here about the flexibility first, not just following what other people are telling you.

[00:51:13] Anne V Mühlethaler: You need to do. Mm-hmm. Finding your way to being unique. Right. That's what happens with the tapestry. I'm guessing that each of your, each of your clients does something really very different. Mm. But now I have a niggly question at the back of my mind. I wanna know, how are you using AI nowadays? 'cause I'm assuming you are.

[00:51:33] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah,

[00:51:34] Anne V Mühlethaler: yeah, yeah. We we're, we're not ashamed. You should be. Tell me about your feeling about how, how is AI supporting you at the moment, and where does it frighten or annoy you?

[00:51:49] Felicity Haythorn: Well, I see it as, it's almost like having a, a junior copywriter. It helps with structuring, say a blog article and coming up [00:52:00] with some ideas of what you might want to put in there.

[00:52:03] Felicity Haythorn: But before that. I would've fed it. A lot of good ideas that, you know, I would've researched myself, and then I would, because then if you, you put it in, you get this kind of, you don't then have to write all the headings. You can, it's all there structured, but then what we like to say is we go in and edit the shit out of it.

[00:52:24] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah. It's a very different beast from, you know, by the time we've finished with it. So it just, I think it saves a lot of time. that's how I see it.

[00:52:34] Manfreda Cavazza: It does save a lot of time. And, I'm not ashamed to say that I've, I use it almost daily. I what I find really frustrating.

[00:52:43] Manfreda Cavazza: Well, in a way it's a good thing that it's not brilliant, because if it was brilliant, then that would be worrying. What I find really fascinating is that it, it really needs editing. It's just really quite surprising how bland the language can be [00:53:00] and, and how it, you take the content and you go, okay, well there's, it's, it's, it is like a pre messy first draft.

[00:53:07] Felicity Haythorn: That's a good way to describe it.

[00:53:08] Manfreda Cavazza: I do remember when I was a journalist and it wouldn't have been before the internet. I'm not that old. There was this sort of system when I was working at the Daily Mail where if you were writing about a particular company, you could bring up all the articles that had ever been written about that company.

[00:53:23] Manfreda Cavazza: And I would use that content

[00:53:25] Manfreda Cavazza: to use as background. I could, you know, obviously the news would be new and it would be whatever had been announced that day. But I would take stuff that had been written before and rewrite it and that was just the art of that was just what you had to do. So I kind of see AI as that it's like a, a, a really good research tool.

[00:53:46] Manfreda Cavazza: It scans the internet for all the stuff that's been written about that particular topic. You still have to check the links, you still have to check sources. Like I used to as a journalist, you, you have to rewrite it, so it's your own words. [00:54:00] You have to make the tone right. So there's a lot of editing that goes on, but it is a nice way of capturing information, getting it on a PE down on paper, and then using that information to craft your piece of writing.

[00:54:14] Manfreda Cavazza: That's how I use it.

[00:54:15] Felicity Haythorn: And I mean there was that really interesting. There was a story in the papers recently about a journalist who used AI to completely generate Yeah. A story. And it was all bollocks and people, and I think it was in the Times or whatever, really no one checked anything. Yeah. I was really, really shocked.

[00:54:34] Manfreda Cavazza: Wow.

[00:54:35] Felicity Haythorn: Because like the subeditors at least, and maybe they've sacked all the subeditors, I dunno. But there was nobody there to verify. And that's a huge part of my job was making sure that facts are correct because, you know, you sound like an idiot if you get it wrong.

[00:54:51] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah.

[00:54:52] Felicity Haythorn: And it, it kind of, you know, it makes you, it lessens people's trust in you.

[00:54:58] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah.

[00:54:58] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah.

[00:54:58] Felicity Haythorn: And it's really [00:55:00] important that that stuff is all correct and if people are just relying on AI, then it's shoddy. It's shoddy. Yeah. Good word. Yeah. We don't like shoddy.

[00:55:10] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah, it's funny. I prefer, I prefer to use it after I've drafted my messy first drafts. Yeah,

[00:55:15] Manfreda Cavazza: that's interesting.

[00:55:16] Anne V Mühlethaler: Because I find that it's easier if I use all of my words.

[00:55:20] Anne V Mühlethaler: Mm. However imperfect they may be. And then if I brainstorm, how do I need to go on with this, or whatever question I may have, I will ask it to keep as many of my words as possible.

[00:55:34] Anne V Mühlethaler: And sometimes it often a good alternative, but I tend to find that if it's, if it's not a word that came out of me Yeah. Then it's, it's likely not to feel right. Yeah. So yeah, I go the, I I go the other way round. But it's interesting what you're saying because it's saves us so much time. I can see why someone hard pressed, because God knows what's going on in their lives, would just want to bypass and [00:56:00] just let ai, whichever AI you're using do the whole piece.

[00:56:06] Anne V Mühlethaler: Do you have any advice for people who are currently. Not able to hire people like yourselves, copy editors, talented copy editors, I should say, and storytellers to, to help them with their content marketing and their, their voice development.

[00:56:23] Manfreda Cavazza: Yes. So this goes back to what Flea was saying earlier about the messaging, understanding your, the what, how, why we call it. I think if you have a really clear understanding of what you're trying to say and how you want to say it and why you're different and what your values are and what your stories are, you could potentially, AI could be brilliant, but, but you need to be quite discerning. There's that word again with how you, tell the AI to, to write the piece.

[00:56:56] Manfreda Cavazza: Hmm. And you have to go back again and again. Go, that's not quite right. Can you add [00:57:00] this? Can you change the tone? So it, I think. I think, again, Phil and I were talking about this the other day, we will all eventually become prompt engineers. But there'll be good ones and bad ones. And maybe there is a role where you can learn how to work with AI and, and learn what to put into it so that you get what you want out of it.

[00:57:25] Manfreda Cavazza: But I think there's quite a lot of strategy and messaging work that you need to do beforehand and so that you can feed the robot with the right information to get what you want.

[00:57:38] Felicity Haythorn: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. Mm.

[00:57:42] Manfreda Cavazza: I think it's real back and forth. , you can't just take what they write.

[00:57:47] Manfreda Cavazza: You

[00:57:47] Felicity Haythorn: probably dump a load of stuff into it and expect it to come back, but yeah, there's a huge amount of twiddling for sure.

[00:57:55] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm.

[00:57:56] Felicity Haythorn: But yeah, I think I agree with Freddie. It's, it's the, the. [00:58:00] Knowing exactly what you want to say first really helped. And then feeding it with, any information that you've gleaned along the way, to make it sound more you or, yeah.

[00:58:13] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah. That's the only way to really, and trial and error, I suppose. Mm-hmm.

[00:58:18] Manfreda Cavazza: But the other thing that I think is, and this happens with, I think female founders in particular. I think people feel a very, they're very lacking in confidence in their own voice and their own ability. Oh, a hundred

[00:58:30] Anne V Mühlethaler: percent.

[00:58:30] Manfreda Cavazza: To actually, to say what they are trying to say. Mm-hmm. We, we do this thing called the Wise Women Mentorship. We've only just launched it this year, but we've, we've got, we're doing, we're basically supporting one female founder each season. And the spring one was this lovely lady called Tan, who is the founder of a snack brand called Noosh.

[00:58:53] Manfreda Cavazza: And she makes these little energy balls with, from home in her kitchen and Sussex and it's all delicious and vegan ingredients and [00:59:00] they're really yummy. Not balls. Anyway, she's, she's a real firecracker of a woman and she's got the most incredible personality. She's really warm, she's funny, she's quite naughty and sexy and, and the way she talks is just hilarious.

[00:59:16] Manfreda Cavazza: And, but she felt that it was all a bit much and that she was putting people off and that she kind of couldn't be herself 'cause it wasn't very PC and, and anyway, we worked with her and we were like, no, you should just be you. And just and she felt so liberated. She's like, it's almost like you're giving me permission to just say what I wanna say and say it how I want to say it.

[00:59:41] Manfreda Cavazza: I mean, obviously, you know, we, we would advise her to not swear all the time and, you know, not talk about what goes on behind closed doors too much. But you know what I mean? She had this wonderful, warm, hilarious personality that she was afraid to [01:00:00] show to the world. And I, what I worry about with AI is that, you know, she might go into AI and go write a LinkedIn post about my healthy snacks and it would just be so boring.

[01:00:12] Felicity Haythorn: Well it comes back to the authenticity again.

[01:00:14] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah. And I, but I just think the realness, I think we've all got lazy because we think AI can do it better, but actually. I,

[01:00:21] Anne V Mühlethaler: I, I don't think it's lazy. Sorry to interrupt you, but I completely know what you mean. So myself and another couple of, couple of friends I know we were very wordy when we write right?

[01:00:35] Anne V Mühlethaler: We, we, I mean there's a reason why I love long form, but there's a part of me also because English is not my first language and for this person, she's American, so she can't claim that. But, but for anyone who feels or has been told as opposed to Flea by a teacher that you write too much or you're too long, or that you can't tell a story, or there's always gonna [01:01:00] be like the echo of what you've been told earlier in your life about your being too much or less than, or not enough in all of the good stuff in between.

[01:01:12] Anne V Mühlethaler: And so I think that. I've noticed in the last few months of using or not using AI, that personally I feel like it has freed me to be me. Because when it is AI generated, at first, when we see the words that are spat back in our face, it feels so smart. Mm. Because it's conceptual, it's more conceptual, and sometimes conceptual may feel hard to, you know, to get down on paper.

[01:01:40] Anne V Mühlethaler: So I, I think for some of us, it makes us feel smart in a way that we were told before that we weren't.

[01:01:46] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm.

[01:01:46] Anne V Mühlethaler: Does that makes sense? But then when you read it, you notice that you don't feel anything.

[01:01:52] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm. It's really weird, isn't it?

[01:01:55] Anne V Mühlethaler: Isn't it? So I think this is where you go, you see authenticity. [01:02:00] There's another word that was sort of circling back in my mind.

[01:02:02] Anne V Mühlethaler: It's, uh, it's almost specificity. The more specific you can be.

[01:02:07] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah, yeah.

[01:02:08] Anne V Mühlethaler: About anything. Mm. Because AI is not embodied, it does not enjoy a human, uh, experience. Mm. With all of its highs and lows. And I can totally see why we get a sort of a dopamine hit Yeah. Saying, oh my God, it's done. Yeah. And it sounds so smart.

[01:02:24] Anne V Mühlethaler: And then the second part of the, the, the reaction for me now is, oh, but it's not good. Yeah.

[01:02:30] Manfreda Cavazza: But at least you've got a, a rough version that you can change, like Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I'm

[01:02:35] Anne V Mühlethaler: not saying that I don't like it because in there are other ways in which I used AI not for generating content, where it brings a lot of added value, much more than that.

[01:02:46] Anne V Mühlethaler: But, but I think you ha we landed on this unexpected thread of, of what is it like for people who don't trust their voice? Mm. Who don't trust their thinking [01:03:00] To rely too much on AI is likely to, to then become bland and, and to go unnoticed.

[01:03:07] Manfreda Cavazza: I know that's what I worry about. And that they think that the only, the, the only version that's worth putting out is the, the, the AI version.

[01:03:14] Manfreda Cavazza: But actually, if they could use it to just start the process and just start the flow of words, but then yeah, hopefully gain the confidence to edit it and make it sound more like them.

[01:03:29] Felicity Haythorn: That's what, and I think it's just doing it and getting it out there and practicing and practicing and practicing. I mean, we wrote an email recently to our subscribers saying, you know, we didn't suddenly just get to this stage.

[01:03:42] Felicity Haythorn: It didn't just happen overnight. Mm-hmm. It's taken us years and years and years of practicing writing, and, and, and then coming together as a, as a team. And then, you know, doing it all again. 'cause we, we had already built up [01:04:00] personal brands and now, I don't know. I think it's just doing it. Yeah.

[01:04:04] Felicity Haythorn: Do the thing. Which is really hard. It is really

[01:04:08] Manfreda Cavazza: hard.

[01:04:09] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. It's

[01:04:10] Felicity Haythorn: really hard.

[01:04:10] Anne V Mühlethaler: But then it's also, there is also an enjoyable part to it. And I think that if anything, this reminds me that the joy is actually in the journey and in the effort.

[01:04:21] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah.

[01:04:21] Anne V Mühlethaler: Not just in the finished product.

[01:04:23] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah.

[01:04:24] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. And, and, and I was thinking about the, you know, the alchemy and the change that happens when you write.

[01:04:33] Anne V Mühlethaler: And I guess that I don't want us to bypass that. I was listening to, a woman, I dunno if you're familiar with Maureen Murdoch. Mm. She wrote a book called The Heroine's Journey. She worked with Joseph Campbell. Yes. And she's a teacher. She's an author and she teaches memoir writers and.

[01:04:54] Anne V Mühlethaler: And, and it brought me a lot of joy to, to listen to her because she was basically saying [01:05:00] that writing a memoir is akin to, you know, it's can produce better results than going to therapy. Yeah. And I was like, okay, ting, I'm writing a memoir. Certainly feels like therapy at at times, but I think that it's going through the slog and then then having moments of flow and then the moment of rereading when you're like, oh my God, this really sounds great.

[01:05:22] Anne V Mühlethaler: This really sounds like me. Like this really sounds like what I wanna put out in the world. And that doesn't come straight away, but I hope that we all can sort of continuously give ourselves some time for that self-exploration. 'cause I think it does a lot for our own, self-development, for the brand development, for reconnecting to our values, for remembering what, what matters.

[01:05:47] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah. And I think that. But AI can't really do that piece, necessarily, but it can help with maybe the process of getting it out into the [01:06:00] world.

[01:06:00] Felicity Haythorn: Mm.

[01:06:01] Manfreda Cavazza: It can help, it can save time. But that's why, you know, we, we go on and on about the authenticity and the narrative threads because we just feel that that's just such an important element to bring into any content that people are creating, whether it's, you know, blog posts or website copy, or whatever it is that you're putting out into the world.

[01:06:24] Manfreda Cavazza: You need to have that confidence and that ability to, to, to be authentic. And AI can't help with that, but we can work with Ai.

[01:06:36] Felicity Haythorn: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's efficient.

[01:06:40] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah, for sure. So I think that now is a good time to bring our conversation to a close. I wanted to invite a reflection from you first. Thank you so much for your time and, and, and your heart and your voices.

[01:06:58] Anne V Mühlethaler: But before we, we [01:07:00] end, I wanted to ask you, is there anything that surprised you that came out in our conversation?

[01:07:08] Manfreda Cavazza: Hmm. I think actually the piece we were just talking about now about the, the idea that people don't feel good enough to, to write their own content because they think AI would do it better. Mm-hmm.

[01:07:23] Manfreda Cavazza: I hadn't really thought about that before, and I actually think that that's something that potentially a lot of people struggle with. And I just think it's a bit of a shame because anything that comes from the heart and that is honestly written and authentic and real is always going to be better.

[01:07:41] Manfreda Cavazza: And I would just love to be able to help more people find that confidence to do that. Mm-hmm. Because yeah, that's what makes people, people, you know. Yeah. Our feelings, our emotions, our experiences, our, the pain and the grief [01:08:00] and the love and all of that. It's just, that's what makes it interesting. What makes life interesting.

[01:08:04] Manfreda Cavazza: I think if we all just start churning out really bland copy, then it's just. Not a good place to be, is it?

[01:08:13] Anne V Mühlethaler: What about you, Felicity? Is there any part of our conversation that surprised you or an insight that you pick up on?

[01:08:21] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah, going back to the confidence, I think that's, it's just really, it's, you know, how do you suddenly get it?

[01:08:29] Felicity Haythorn: It's very hard. Mm-hmm. And I think I've grown in confidence through working with Freddie and being able to have that kind of accountability and and support. But also, you know, maybe that's what we sell in, in a way. We sell confidence and, and that's very, that's, you know, very hard to pin down, isn't it?

[01:08:49] Felicity Haythorn: We are not selling. I don't know. We're not help. We're helping people to sell their stuff, but they need to feel confident to do that. And we sell confidence through [01:09:00] words, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just interesting to think about it in that way.

[01:09:04] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's such a good way to say it, because you know, if I go back to five years ago when I asked a friend for help, 'cause I was looking for a copy editor, and she introduced me to Freddie.

[01:09:15] Anne V Mühlethaler: I had understood that if I was going to copy edit myself, I would never publish because I value editing and it would take me too much time.

[01:09:26] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah.

[01:09:27] Anne V Mühlethaler: And I, and I did not study grammar or English at university and I just knew that I would just get down a rabbit hole of perfectionism that would make it impossible for me to move.

[01:09:38] Anne V Mühlethaler: So technically I purchased confidence

[01:09:45] Manfreda Cavazza: that one.

[01:09:47] Anne V Mühlethaler: Sorry.

[01:09:47] Manfreda Cavazza: You barely need editing now. Honestly, it's been so lovely. It's

[01:09:50] Anne V Mühlethaler: getting better.

[01:09:51] Manfreda Cavazza: It's been really nice to be part of your journey as well with your writing. Like I can really tell now that you are so much more confident with how you write. [01:10:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:10:00] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah.

[01:10:02] Anne V Mühlethaler: And there are times when things just come out effortlessly as it did last week. Yeah. But that, because I went for a swim and I think, I just need to remember that sometimes there are some forms of physical movement that can unlock a practice of content marketing. Yeah. I mean, we are human beings.

[01:10:19] Anne V Mühlethaler: Sometimes we need to think of the physicality and the, the, the, the embodied energy that needs to move for us to actually sit down at our desks and, and produce something, something fresh. I know. It is

[01:10:31] Manfreda Cavazza: funny 'cause I was thinking after you wrote that and I edited it and I, I was thinking about it over the weekend, weirdly, and I was like, Anne literally just wrote a story about how she went for a swim.

[01:10:41] Manfreda Cavazza: Mm-hmm. Like if you had put that into ai. Write a blog. Yeah, a blog post about how I went for a swim. It's like they wouldn't know that, you know, when you were little Yeah. That you went there and the smells and the fishing with your dad and all of that.

[01:10:55] Anne V Mühlethaler: Oh, yeah. And by the way, that whole story about Mia Hyperventilating, I can remember it [01:11:00] as if it was yesterday.

[01:11:01] Manfreda Cavazza: I mean, so I literally, it was so funny. Was there with you and, and then you were like there again as, as a grownup and swimming again, and this, and the water was clear. And that was a really lovely metaphor as well. And so it was literally the, you know, the bare bones of that was, Anne went for a swim. But the, obviously that's not what, what the piece was.

[01:11:23] Manfreda Cavazza: It was so much more. It was about grief and love and you becoming who you are and confidence. There's so much in that. It's a brilliant piece.

[01:11:33] Anne V Mühlethaler: Hmm. Yeah. It's funny, I think that we, we forget that in order for us to bring the best of ourselves in our work, we also need to pay attention to ourselves in our lives.

[01:11:45] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. And sometimes there's nothing better than, than coming back to our sense, our physical senses. Mm. Which I think is something that Flea is probably very good at doing given the fact that you practice that you're a surfer and that you get out [01:12:00] on the water really regularly, does that bring you a lot of creative juices, do you feel?

[01:12:06] Felicity Haythorn: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I haven't, I actually haven't surfed for ages, but my, oh, sorry. Feeling in the water, going for a swim, being literally head under and then you rise up and you're just somebody else. It's the cold water just does something special. It's got some kind of energy. I don't know. Yeah.

[01:12:28] Felicity Haythorn: So that is definitely my go-to for clearing out the cobwebs or just going to the beach. Yeah. I like just, yeah. The warm sand and, oh, I just love it.

[01:12:40] Anne V Mühlethaler: Mm. Yeah. Ugh. I wish I was near a warm sand. Anyway, there's no sand here, but we're fine. So is there anything that's important that you'd like our listeners to take away a one word checkout that you wanna leave them with, or two word checkout?

[01:12:57] Manfreda Cavazza: I think, well, you asked at the [01:13:00] beginning for us to set an intention.

[01:13:02] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yes, I did. And the

[01:13:03] Manfreda Cavazza: word that came up for me was clarity. Mm-hmm. And I think there's, it's lacking in a lot of people's thoughts and strategies and sometimes you just need to go strip it all back and just go back to basics and just think about the clarity of what it is you're trying to achieve.

[01:13:25] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. Very, very, very good point.

[01:13:30] Felicity Haythorn: For me it was, I think you said something about open, and I did think open. Being open is. Very, very important. Kind of open to being, what am I trying to say? Being honest, I suppose. Being true to what you believe. Yeah. And, and if you can get that out again, it is kind of similar to clarity, really.

[01:13:58] Felicity Haythorn: [01:14:00] Yeah. Open and compassion as well. I think understanding where other people are coming from.

[01:14:07] Manfreda Cavazza: Yeah,

[01:14:08] Felicity Haythorn: that's, yeah. Brings it all back together. So not for yourself as a business owner, but also for everyone that you work with. We can understand each other. The more we can be authentic and, connect with each other.

[01:14:21] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. That's wonderful. Thank you so much for your thoughts, your time, your energy. I'm so thrilled to be able to have this conversation with you. I'll put lots of links for people to be able to connect with you across mediums, including your website and Instagram and LinkedIn. I'm looking forward to seeing you again very soon.

[01:14:44] Anne V Mühlethaler: We are going to circle back to work on what masterclass you can offer for. Mm-hmm. But you know, Freddie, when you were talking about giving people confidence and voice and female founders, I started to think, oh, you need to teach. Yeah. [01:15:00] That, that's what you need to teach. So I wonder if there was perhaps a little bit of a drip of inspiration coming through to this interview, I think that that can influence the, the topic of some of the masterclasses that you'll be offering.

[01:15:13] Manfreda Cavazza: Yes. I think that that would be a good one. Giving people the framework almost to just. Because I think if you break it down, that confidence and you ask the right questions, that confidence comes because, because people realize that actually they've got so much going for them, and it's just about talking, talking about it, and communicating.

[01:15:34] Felicity Haythorn: Mm.

[01:15:34] Manfreda Cavazza: So, mm, that could be, that could be a theme.

[01:15:38] Anne V Mühlethaler: Cool. Well, thank you so much both of you. I'm really looking forward to our next conversation and what else is going to happen with Salt and Sage Storytelling. Have a beautiful rest of the day and we'll speak again very soon.

[01:15:53] Manfreda Cavazza: Thanks, Anne. Thank you. Thanks so much. Okay.

[01:15:56]