Who am I? and what do I need? With Jessica Faith Graham

The Metta Interview with guest Jessica Faith Graham

[00:00:06] Speaker: Hey, it's Anne and welcome to the Metta Interview. Generous conversations with brilliant or beautiful humans Contributors to Le Trente. Today's conversation is special in more ways than one.

[00:00:19] My guest is Jessica Faith Graham, a counselor, holistic life coach, mindfulness mentor, and the author of the children's book, the Love Inside. Her work Centers on Building Self-Compassion in Children and Families. Jessica and I met as peers in the mindfulness mentor training that we both took with Banyan, which is a project spearheaded by Jack Kornfield and Tara Brack about 18 months ago.

[00:00:50] Speaker: Then just before her first children's book came out, Jessica got in touch and asked me for support. She knew that communication is my specialty, and so [00:01:00] here we are. After working together for a number of months, I found myself thinking that Jessica would make a wonderful contributor.

[00:01:09] Speaker: One of my favorite moments of resonance between us was discovering that we are both devoted readers of Teachings on Love, a book by Thich Naht Hanh. We have the same edition, dogeared marked up full of notes, messy, but in the sort of beautiful, alive way that show exactly how much I care about a book. And I think this says a lot about the spirit of this interview, the space we hold for each other, and for you, our listener, as well as the core of both of our missions, even if it's not expressed out loud in this conversation. A spirit of deep caring of benevolence of love.

[00:01:53] Speaker: This makes for a beautiful starting point to explore Jessica's questions. Funnily enough, she's the [00:02:00] second guest on the meta interview to bring two questions. The previous one was Francesca Hoge with What's Your Assignment Followed By, if Not Now, when? And I like that these are clusters, a movement where the first question becomes a jumping off point for the next.

[00:02:20] Speaker: This conversation touches on what happens when we forget ourselves, when we disappear behind our relationships, behind the purring of routine and keep thinking that normal is good. Jessica unfolds part of her story for us here. How she came to reconnect with herself, and I'll tell you now, it wasn't a pain-free process.

[00:02:43] Speaker: But also what she found waiting for her on the other side. I'm so happy to share this interview with you, and I hope it resonates deeply. On that note, if it does resonate, please take a moment to rate and review the [00:03:00] podcast on Apple Podcasts, or leave a comment on the episode in Spotify. Subscribe if you haven't already.

[00:03:07] Speaker: And do me this really big favor, share this with a friend who might need to hear this conversation. Every small act of support expands this work and these conversations making it possible for me and my guest to reach more people who need to listen and to explore these questions for themselves.

[00:03:26] Speaker: So thank you in advance for that. And now to my interview with Jessica Faith Graham.

[00:03:34] Anne V Mühlethaler: Jessica, it's so lovely to see you. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:03:37] Jessica Faith Graham: Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

[00:03:40] Anne V Mühlethaler: Now, one of the ways I like to enter into this Metta interview is to ask my guests what's bringing you joy or excitement at the moment?

[00:03:51] Anne V Mühlethaler: And it doesn't need to have, it doesn't need to be anything particularly profound. It can be casual or fun. So what's, [00:04:00] what's been sparkling in your life lately? Mm-hmm.

[00:04:04] Jessica Faith Graham: I've been doing a lot of learning. So this month has felt quiet to me. But what that's meant is there's been a lot of room to do more reading, a little bit more writing, just more learning of my craft.

[00:04:17] Jessica Faith Graham: And I think in that quietness, it's really kind of allowed me to, just learn so much at this time. And that's feeling really good. I don't think we always get extended amounts of, you know, a week or two where we just don't have as much going on. And so to use that and not feel guilty about it has been kind of nice.

[00:04:39] Anne V Mühlethaler: That sounds lovely.

[00:04:42] Jessica Faith Graham: So would you kindly introduce yourself in your own words? Sure.

[00:04:49] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah.

[00:04:49] Jessica Faith Graham: So I'm

[00:04:50] Jessica Faith Graham: Jessica. We always start with what we do, right? So I, I think I'll [00:05:00] start first with my relationships. I'm a mom, I am a daughter, sister, aunt. And that's me. And then I am therapist. I'm an author of a book. I would say I am a creative person and an optimist.

[00:05:17] Jessica Faith Graham: That's kind of who I am.

[00:05:20] Anne V Mühlethaler: How do you marry all of these sides of who you are?

[00:05:23] Jessica Faith Graham: Huh? I think that's, that's the question, right? Mm-hmm. How, how do we allow ourselves to kind of take up all that space? Yeah. I think that's a work in progress.

[00:05:37] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. As you may remember from previous conversations, one of the, one of the ways that I like to use the Metta interview is to make room to tell stories from varied parts of our life, something that you've already introduced, a, a moment ago. And so I'd love to ask you about who you were as a child [00:06:00] and, and perhaps you can tell me about a childhood memory that still makes you smile.

[00:06:07] Speaker 2: Yeah. I was the third in my family, so I'm the youngest and I've got an older brother and older sister, sister's, four years brother's, 11 years. So I often feel like I had this fun, carefree kind of childhood. My memory that I, I love to share now, just kind of that, because it's come, so full circle is when I was probably in first grade, so six or seven.

[00:06:37] Speaker 2: I made little books about star and heart and these characters, and I would write these books. I don't, I, and I think my mom actually was able to find one and give it to me just a few years ago. And so it was, that was a lot of fun. I just really remember like loving that creative space as a kid.

[00:06:58] Anne V Mühlethaler: So you were [00:07:00] putting out your own books out in the world, at what age?

[00:07:04] Speaker 2: This was six or seven. I think I just did them, you know, for fun. That was what was fun for me. I do remember we had, I had a group of friends, they were actually sisters, they were twins and an older one and in fourth grade, so how old would I have been? Nine or 10? We created a newspaper for the school and, and my mom also gifted me with one of those.

[00:07:25] Speaker 2: And it was just a really funny experience to see that too.

[00:07:30] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's incredible. I feel a bit jealous 'cause I love writing, but there was absolutely no, there's no memory I can dig out of me ever publishing. That's funny. That is funny. Now. Yeah, maybe that says something also about how small the village was, where I grew up.

[00:07:51] Anne V Mühlethaler: Anyways, I'd love to ask you as well, what's an experience, an early experience that. You think [00:08:00] first planted the seed for the work that you do

[00:08:02] Jessica Faith Graham: now?

[00:08:07] Jessica Faith Graham: An early experience. My mom was a

[00:08:10] Speaker 2: teacher and at the time when I was growing up, she was teaching what was then called gifted and talented. They don't call it that anymore, but she was doing a lot of research. She was working on her master's degree and so she really was into, and she also has an art degree actually, so I would say she was really great at signing me up for art classes and I too grew up in a really small town just giving me experiences and really kind of padding that. A little bit of being artistic, I think, she put a little bit of an emphasis on it, whether I knew it or not.

[00:08:48] Speaker 2: And I don't know if it wasn't do this, it was just kind of open the door to it. And she, yeah, I haven't actually thought about that, all that much, but [00:09:00] I would say she probably helped the growth in that area or just to explore it a bit more. Hmm. I was thinking just the other day too, because I have a dad who's quite different from my mom, and he always used to tell me, ,I said a phrase just the other day to somebody, oh, you can put that on your resume.

[00:09:16] Speaker 2: That's what my dad always used to tell me. And so I had, you know, this side of dad and then that side of mom. And so I, I think it's just kind of a funny dynamic that I had growing up of.

[00:09:30] Anne V Mühlethaler: So he was very practically minded and she was just inviting you to explore something. Without a goal.

[00:09:39] Speaker 2: Right. I think she was, because she was learning those things at the time and how to really kind of foster that creative side in children.

[00:09:45] Speaker 2: And so, she was great at opening that door. My dad was running a business at the time and so, he would often make jokes to me about, oh, you should work on your muscles or build your resume, things like that. So it was a very, [00:10:00] two very different views going on.

[00:10:02] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. That sounds like a lovely childhood.

[00:10:06] Anne V Mühlethaler: Lovely parents. They were, yeah. How did you first become interested in the field that you work in now? How did you first get interested in, in therapy?

[00:10:18] Jessica Faith Graham: That's what's funny too. My path is not clear at all. When I was in high school, I would say I kind of dropped the more creative pursuits and artistic things.

[00:10:29] Jessica Faith Graham: Didn't take an art class. I wasn't really into writing at the time. I did theater, I guess, but I remember in high school thinking I want to become a school counselor. That was the job that I thought that I wanted to do. So the therapy component was there. Back then when I got to college, a totally different thing.

[00:10:51] Jessica Faith Graham: I didn't even think about therapy when I first entered university. , it was different experience. Then

[00:10:57] Jessica Faith Graham: So how

[00:10:58] Anne V Mühlethaler: did you get to, [00:11:00] to become a counselor and therapist? Okay.

[00:11:03] Speaker 2: Many years and a few different degrees. I think I got lost a little bit. Before I started university. I remember saying to my parents, you know, this was in 1997. Can I take a year off? I have no clue what I wanna do. All of a sudden, right before college, I just had absolutely no clue what I wanted to do.

[00:11:23] Speaker 2: And at that time, a gap year didn't really exist. And my dad was of the mindset of, no, just go to school. You gotta go. If you take a year off, what if you don't go? He was really worried about that and he wanted me to get the education. So I went and I feel like I just landed on that campus and like as if I could twirl around and just decide, well, what am I gonna do?

[00:11:45] Speaker 2: And it was the direction of the art building. And I absolutely, it was funny because on the campus where I went, there was one side of the campus, there was a river you would cross, and then the art building was on the other side. That was the only building that was on that side. Wow. And [00:12:00] so it was like, once I crossed that river, got to that art building, I absolutely loved what was going on there.

[00:12:06] Speaker 2: And ended up in my first drawing class and just kind of kept taking art classes and decided I was gonna become a fine arts major. And then for a minor, I added women's studies at the time and that actually made a really lovely study abroad experience. I was able to travel throughout Europe with a group of people and explore businesses.

[00:12:31] Speaker 2: And so that was a great experience. So I'll rush kind of through this. Graduated with that degree and my dad sat down with me for dinner, just the two of us, and said, now what are you gonna do with a. Art major and a women's studies minor, and I had no clue. So I went back to my high school plan of school counselor and said, well, I'll go and get a teaching degree so I can be in the school, and then after that I'll get a master's in therapy.

[00:12:58] Speaker 2: That was the plan. [00:13:00] And it did happen. The, I got a bachelor's degree in education, taught for a short time, realized the classroom was not for me. I'm an introvert and so being in that just loud environment all day was a little too much. And so when I started my master's degree in therapy, I decided private practice was the better route and not to go to school counseling.

[00:13:20] Speaker 2: And so that's how I ended up here. But it was many years and it was, like I said, not not a clear path.

[00:13:29] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. I don't think so many of us have got a very clear career path. If you trace it back to what your desires were as a child or as a teenager, whether you knew or not. I, it's fascinating 'cause as I hear you describe this, I find that there was almost like a, you were blossoming for a while in one area and then you went in the other area, and then you went in this one, and then you went in that one.

[00:13:55] Anne V Mühlethaler: And today you are both the therapist and an author of children's books. [00:14:00] 'cause I know there's more than one. I mean, some are in the works.

[00:14:03] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah.

[00:14:06] Anne V Mühlethaler: So actually, that said, if you could describe your professional journey as a type of journey, a road trip, a climb, a walkthrough forest, a dance, how would you describe it?

[00:14:23] Anne V Mühlethaler: Oh,

[00:14:23] Jessica Faith Graham: that's that. Well, you just so beautifully described those different ones. I guess I see it more of just kind of the circle circling, you know, and I, it's funny because all of a sudden. A few years back I thought, well, this is why all of those experiences have led to where I am now and I can use each one of those degrees for a while.

[00:14:48] Jessica Faith Graham:  I just made fun of that. I had all these degrees, they're just off to the side, but now I think I really utilize all of them. So it has definitely come full circle. So I guess in that sense, maybe [00:15:00] it's not the spiral, it's just the circle that's come around.

[00:15:05] Anne V Mühlethaler: That sounds beautiful.

[00:15:08] Anne V Mühlethaler: Now, I'd love to ask you as well, when you think about the difficulties that you may have over the course of your, both your training and your career, what would you say is a personal struggle or a challenge that has most profoundly shaped you?

[00:15:31] Jessica Faith Graham: There's been a few. I think

[00:15:36] Jessica Faith Graham: there's a few different things. I look at where I am now and how many times I kind of got pulled off of the path of what my heart wanted to do, what felt really passionate for me, but didn't necessarily fit what everybody else was doing, what everyone else was doing. I remember when I first got to university and I was doing this art major. I went to my first yoga [00:16:00] class. It was, I'd never been to yoga before. And I'll never forget when she let us at the end in a meditation and I thought, this is the most amazing experience.

[00:16:09] Jessica Faith Graham: You know, I just felt so alive and getting all those experiences felt so great. And over time, I think at some point right around that graduation time, I dropped a lot of those things that were bringing such joy and passion into my life, or that was really making me feel alive. And whenever I've done that in my life, I've gone through those phases where I don't keep up those, whether they're hobbies, habits, routines, whatever we wanna call them.

[00:16:37] Jessica Faith Graham: I think that's when I've felt after a certain amount of time that I've kind of suffered through that.

[00:16:44] Anne V Mühlethaler: I hear you and I see myself.

[00:16:52] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah, I know. And maybe some of our listeners are gonna feel the same. There's an, we don't all [00:17:00] need the same things quite, but I know that when I don't keep up with the things that make me feel my best, whether it's a spiritual practice, a physical practice, whatever it is, things don't get good. That was very eloquent.

[00:17:21] Anne V Mühlethaler: I hope you appreciated that.

[00:17:23] Jessica Faith Graham: I think, okay. So you and I did a meditation, mindfulness training together. Mindfulness training. And one of the things I learned in that, and I'll never forget, one of our instructors said this, I wish I could give them credit for who it was, and I can't remember who said it, but it's, if we are suffering, we are believing something untrue.

[00:17:42] Jessica Faith Graham: And the first time I heard it, I actually got kind of mad.

[00:17:46] Jessica Faith Graham: And I was like, oh,

[00:17:47] Jessica Faith Graham: that's not true. And then I knew, okay, wait. If I'm feeling anger from something, we gotta look into that. And I think that's true. I think, and I don't wanna say that I was so suffering, but there have been times in my life where I have felt life has kind [00:18:00] of taken over.

[00:18:00] Jessica Faith Graham: I didn't know my peer, like passion or purpose, or just didn't feel like I was really, feeling so much joy and passion about what I was doing in life, right?

[00:18:11] Jessica Faith Graham: And so if there was a little bit of that, let's say, suffering, what was I believing to be true? And I often think it's, I needed, right? Like, I should do this or I need to do this.

[00:18:22] Jessica Faith Graham: The other thing that I think about when you talk, when you were just talking about this, is you actually wrote something this fall that I mm-hmm. Was, I had one of those moments where I was like, oh, she named it, now I had to write it down. I have sticky notes.

[00:18:36] Jessica Faith Graham: But you wrote the innate need for security versus our need for authenticity.

[00:18:43] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm.

[00:18:43] Jessica Faith Graham: You wrote that piece, I believe in the fall, right?

[00:18:47] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

[00:18:49] Jessica Faith Graham: Okay. So when you wrote that, I was like, oh, you just named so much of my struggle. Mm. And so much of where that suffering, I think lied for me. And so I think [00:19:00] a lot of that is, as a creative person, we have a need for security.

[00:19:05] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm-hmm. And, we also as a person have a great need for being authentic. Right. And so how do we make those two work in this world? And that's something I'm still learning and juggling and trying to honor both spaces, security and authenticity.

[00:19:22] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yes. I remember that piece really well. I had, I had seen some work by Gabor Mate.

[00:19:32] Anne V Mühlethaler: I was exploring what had made me dare pursue a music career when, it was drilled into me by my parents that it was a really bad idea and that I needed like you to get an education or, and I didn't listen to them. But there were conditions surrounding my need for authenticity being greater than my need for [00:20:00] security because security was not granted at the time within my family unit.

[00:20:05] Anne V Mühlethaler: And so as such, I placed authenticity above security. It's, yeah, it's a really juicy topic.

[00:20:12] Jessica Faith Graham: It

[00:20:13] Anne V Mühlethaler: is,

[00:20:13] Jessica Faith Graham: yeah.

[00:20:14] Anne V Mühlethaler: But I so appreciate that you, you opened up this, this sort of portal. 'cause the next question I have for you is, what's a skill that you've developed that surprises you perhaps out of those struggles, those difficult times, or perhaps your, your circular path?

[00:20:36] Jessica Faith Graham: That's a, a really good question. The skill that I've had to really hone and get better at for the past few years has been bravery and courage to, allow myself to keep walking in this path. So my book idea came first and I had nothing else going on.

[00:20:57] Jessica Faith Graham: So I realized, oh, I need to start a website. I need to. [00:21:00] Launch a blog. Those were back then the things that I thought was the path that I needed to do in order to get my children's book published. And I'll never forget the day that I launched the blog. I was a stay at home mom at the time and I had just sheer, utter panic. I mean just, I don't think I felt that much anxiety in ages. And I called my brother the next day and he's a business owner and so I know he is done lots of courageous things, but he just said, well, you jumped in the water, now swim. And that kind, I just thought, oh, he's right. Just keep doing it.

[00:21:36] Jessica Faith Graham: And I've really had to learn how to keep showing up and being brave and courageous. Hmm.

[00:21:44] Jessica Faith Graham: I think. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:48] Jessica Faith Graham:  It's interesting 'cause

[00:21:49] Anne V Mühlethaler: you've named it, you've named the fear. And someone helped you to keep going. How do you think, and this is gonna sound silly because it's not [00:22:00] an advice podcast. Mm-hmm. But if, if anyone listening to us is feeling unsure

[00:22:07] Anne V Mühlethaler: at the thought of moving towards something that's important to them, would you give the same advice as your brother or would you share something else?

[00:22:15] Jessica Faith Graham: Oh, I'd share something else. Okay. I think the key has been, so I think his was create the movement. Keep it going. That's what he was saying. One of the biggest skills that I think I've learned is to surround yourself with people that can support you in this.

[00:22:36] Jessica Faith Graham: And that's where you and I met. I think, you know, I've continued my work with you. You've been a great support. I have another person who helps me just launch social media and newsletters and things like that. Mm-hmm. I have a, a best friend who's a business partner and gives me a business advice and kind of keeps me going and motivated.

[00:22:57] Jessica Faith Graham: And so, and then I've got my family too, and they're really big [00:23:00] supports. And so I look at this as well, it's me doing it without this team that I've kind of created around me, there's no way that it would all keep working the way it has.

[00:23:12] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm, that's lovely. Your own village.

[00:23:17] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah. Create it, right?

[00:23:18] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah. You gotta create it.

[00:23:20] Anne V Mühlethaler: Exactly. Yeah. Now, if your own life were a book right now, what do you think

[00:23:27] Jessica Faith Graham: the chapter would be called?

[00:23:32] Jessica Faith Graham: Gosh,

[00:23:34] Jessica Faith Graham: I, I, I, I don't feel like I'm on chapter one anymore because when I mm-hmm. Went back to, you know, getting, going with the book and launching, I would say the website and the book and kind of getting back into work, and now I'm practicing therapy and,

[00:23:50] Jessica Faith Graham: oh,

[00:23:50] Jessica Faith Graham: it's that messy middle that I'm in right now, though, I would say it's not where I wanna be yet, but I'm making, I'm, I'm, I'm getting, you [00:24:00] know,

[00:24:03] Jessica Faith Graham: what would the chapter be? That's a great question.

[00:24:10] Jessica Faith Graham: I would just say it's not over yet. We're still working on it, or we're still going, or something like that.

[00:24:20] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah. I see you.

[00:24:25] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah, I see you. I do appreciate that. It feels like a lot has happened even just in the last year since I've known you. Now to close this portion of, let's say, to explore and get a feel for who you are. Let me ask you, what's something that people might be surprised to discover about

[00:24:49] Jessica Faith Graham: you? Something that they might be surprised.

[00:24:54] Jessica Faith Graham: Maybe to actually hear me say that I struggle with perfectionism. That's my mm-hmm. Struggle. [00:25:00] It's something I'm fighting every day. Mm-hmm. I think, I don't know that that would surprise people, but I think, yeah, it's something I'm aware of and I'm trying to work through.

[00:25:11] Jessica Faith Graham: How does this manifest for you?

[00:25:17] Jessica Faith Graham: I think I sometimes have to question,

[00:25:22] Jessica Faith Graham: do I hold on to things too long? And it's going back to that being courageous and brave. Sometimes I'll, you know, I've got stacks and stacks of things or things that I'm, what's not good enough yet I

[00:25:37] Jessica Faith Graham: can't do anything with it.

[00:25:39] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah, so I think there's been

[00:25:42] Jessica Faith Graham: times where I've held myself back because I think it should be at a certain level. I also think that. If we're not willing to be human and admit who we are, and we want to kind of hide behind that perfectionist, then we're, we're not always meeting people [00:26:00] either. There's something between us.

[00:26:01] Jessica Faith Graham: And so I think we can have better relationships with people if I'm willing to break that down more and just Yeah. Be who I really am. And I can do that in, I, I, I have no issues doing that in, one-on-one meeting people, but I think, social media has been the thing that I struggle with. How to be authentic on their, that's incredibly hard for me.

[00:26:23] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. That, I would say as an introvert, there's already, perhaps a, an a first barrier. That's huge dismount. Mm-hmm. And then there's obviously all of the stories we tell ourselves about how we need to be appearing in the face of others. Yeah, it's interesting you should say that because recently, despite the fact that for a number of years I was very, very disinterested in social media, I've actually made some really lovely connections with people that I ended up, you know, talking on Zoom after meeting on Instagram.

[00:26:55] Anne V Mühlethaler: And I think the reason why I felt for them is [00:27:00] because of how genuinely themselves I perceived them to be. Mm-hmm. Which by the way, I'm more like you, I'm more of a, oh, let's make it glossy and look good. Mm-hmm. Over, but then I am, I'm the granny of Instagram, right? This is not, I haven't participated on, on social media enough for the last few years.

[00:27:27] Anne V Mühlethaler: So it's an upward struggle for me too, despite the fact that right now I'm feeling, I'm feeling a lot of interest in it.

[00:27:33] Speaker 2: Good. I like that it changes. Right? It's good to know that we go through waves of it.

[00:27:40] Anne V Mühlethaler: It does, yes. It really does. Now I'd love for you to help me introduce the question that feels alive for you right now.

[00:27:50] Anne V Mühlethaler: For our listeners, Jessica and I met a few weeks ago and we had a pre-interview conversations. This is something I do for every, podcast recorded with the meta [00:28:00] interview so that we effectively sort of massage and look at what are questions that my guests are grappling with. And I think the goal here is to remind ourselves that to be human is to ask ourselves sometimes the same question for years or decades because we are trying to solve something for ourselves or for those we love.

[00:28:25] Anne V Mühlethaler: It may be in service of other people. And so tell me a bit about your question and how it emerged for you.

[00:28:36]

[00:28:36] Jessica Faith Graham: The question that kind of kept coming back on my notebooks, and I kept realizing when I've asked myself this in life, the most growth has come from it, is this question of who am I and what do I need?

[00:28:56] Jessica Faith Graham: This is so basic, right? I mean, such as two [00:29:00] simple, simple questions, but I told you my path here hasn't always been a straight line. And, there's been times where I think like so many, I hear this from so many people of, I have so much going on in life, but I just am not feeling that joy and that passion and I'm not sure where I'm going.

[00:29:21] Jessica Faith Graham: I went through that. And

[00:29:26] Jessica Faith Graham: the times in my life where I've asked myself, who am I and what do I need? I have seen the most growth and kind of a coming back to myself and really discovering those basic things as to how I can meet my needs and how I can keep living in that, being authentic, finding that passion in life, that creativity.

[00:29:49] Jessica Faith Graham: And it's whenever I kind of get off that, that path, and I think the more people that I talk with [00:30:00] it, I just find we often, so many of us question, am I living with purpose? Where is my passion? What's my soul calling? You know, like so many people question that and I, I look at it, well, how have I. How have I gotten here?

[00:30:18] Jessica Faith Graham: And it's those questions asking those two easy questions. Hmm.

[00:30:24] Anne V Mühlethaler: I think that what I hear too, and tell me where I'm wrong, is that, that at the back of, at the back of who I am, who am I and what am I doing, is the need to find yourself again because you've gotten lost.

[00:30:46] Anne V Mühlethaler: And I mean, I know the answer because you and I know each other, but I want you to see in what way you wanna tell that story. The story of being lost can be one of deep suffering, [00:31:00] pain and suffering. If we look at it at the, from the Buddhist angle.

[00:31:06] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah. Yeah. I think, um.

[00:31:15] Jessica Faith Graham: In, in my own life. I,

[00:31:21] Speaker 2: I'm a mom of three and so I think that was the first thing I told you about myself. And it's funny 'cause those three little ones haven't even come up yet. That was such a life changing, just immense, like just having them. And I decided to stay at home and so I put all my focus on them.

[00:31:42] Speaker 2: I would say by the time I got to, right after COVID, so into my forties. And I just thought, oh gosh, where am I in all this? And I just had this really restless feeling and so a lot going on. But I [00:32:00] asked at some point just what do I need was the first thing I asked. I was just feeling.

[00:32:09] Speaker 2: Life had just felt on autopilot. And definitely that lost feeling. Like, I just remember it was kids, kids, kids all day long. And then it would be Netflix at night.

[00:32:19] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm-hmm.

[00:32:21] Jessica Faith Graham: At some point I just got this, what do I need? And the first thing that came to me was start going for walks outside. Um, so that was the first thing I added.

[00:32:33] Jessica Faith Graham: Ex-husband, who was my husband at the time was really, really busy career. And so he would get home and we just, I just kind of declared, I am going for a walk when you get home. And it was summer. And so it was great 'cause I, the sunlight was longer. As I started doing these daily walks, it was like, okay, now what do I need?

[00:32:51] Jessica Faith Graham: And music kind of came into it. And so I started listening to music again, these are such simple things, right. Started eating a little [00:33:00] healthier. And then asked it again, and it was bring back my meditation practice. And I hadn't meditated for probably 12 years at that time, maybe 10. And so I just started carving out that time in the morning and meditating.

[00:33:14] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm-hmm. And I just felt so alive from it, like I was finding myself again. I was getting back to myself that, that became just a really important part of my day. And from there I created this whole morning routine and things just started flowing. And it's funny because after about doing that for probably eight or nine months, writing came.

[00:33:37] Jessica Faith Graham: Now I wasn't, I hadn't thought about writing since I was a young child. And here I started writing again. And the idea for the book came during that summer. After doing these practices for just really putting that love and self-care back into myself. So that's, I guess, when I've asked myself those questions.

[00:33:56] Jessica Faith Graham: The life changing part of it. Mm-hmm. And I can see it in other times in my [00:34:00] life too. Not as big of a change, but definitely there's been times where I've felt a little on autopilot, a little lost and asking that has helped

[00:34:10] Jessica Faith Graham: get it back on track.

[00:34:14] Anne V Mühlethaler: I'm so grateful that you shared that. There's, there's a couple of things that came for me just now. A couple of different directions we could explore. Mm-hmm. I know a couple of people I'm not gonna be describing, so they don't guess who they are. I, I know a couple of people in my life who probably are a little lost right now.

[00:34:40] Anne V Mühlethaler: I mean, I've been lost too

[00:34:41] Jessica Faith Graham: before, so I mean, I should know

[00:34:48] Jessica Faith Graham: one of them in particular, I would say.

[00:34:53] Anne V Mühlethaler: Is going to find it almost impossible to think adding anything to their lives because it's already [00:35:00] very full. Again, I know you, I know that you're very dedicated when you commit to something, and I'd like to ask you, how did you make it stick? Because I know that you decided to wake up earlier and earlier to make sure you made room for yourself before you looked after the kids and the full family and your husband.

[00:35:28] Anne V Mühlethaler: And that's really hard to do. I am sure that lots of people are gonna listen, say, Jessica, that sounds great. I can't do it. So how did you, how did you, I'm guessing you were answering your own needs, so there's that part, right? But the creating the change, it's still, it's still really hard.

[00:35:49] Jessica Faith Graham: I think that is so important.

[00:35:51] Jessica Faith Graham: So had you told me years before that you should get back into meditating, you should do yoga again, or you should try [00:36:00] writing. Yeah, thanks. But I don't see the time in my schedule. I would've sure, but you know, I probably would've gotten defensive and No, I can't. You don't. And I probably would've sat there and told you about my day and how it works and,

[00:36:12] Anne V Mühlethaler: Exactly.

[00:36:13] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah. And I would've been overwhelmed by you, not you, but somebody adding more to Yeah. This is what you need. Right. So I think that is, that is the key of it has to come from us. It has to be within you. And you have to answer the question because, I was just reading, of course, we all know we, we can't change another person.

[00:36:36] Jessica Faith Graham: Change has to come from within right now, these, until you really feel it. Those can just be kind of, I think, sentences or just a phrase. But

[00:36:47] Jessica Faith Graham: where was all this coming from?

[00:36:54] Jessica Faith Graham: I think it was the ability to really listen to myself, right? [00:37:00]

[00:37:01] Jessica Faith Graham: And all of a sudden as I started feeling better and realizing that life was kind of working a little bit better, it was like dreams that I had put on the shelf or didn't think that they were attainable anymore, those started to become motivating goals.

[00:37:18] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm.

[00:37:18] Jessica Faith Graham: I was just feeling so much better and all of a sudden, oh wait, I, I don't just have to wear the hat of being mom. I can do more. I can help others. I can do this work. And so the more I got in touch with what was really driving me

[00:37:38] Jessica Faith Graham: and

[00:37:39] Jessica Faith Graham: my. My great desires. That was kind of how I moved. Does that make sense so

[00:37:46] Anne V Mühlethaler: much?

[00:37:48] Anne V Mühlethaler: It really does. I, I know also that, that the beginning, the ignition, so to speak, was a crisis point. And I think that I speak for [00:38:00] both of us when I say that part of the reason why we share this and talk about these big questions, the whole point of the meta interview actually is, is to shine a light

[00:38:12] Jessica Faith Graham: on,

[00:38:16] Anne V Mühlethaler: on the struggle so that we can share each other's life experiences so that others perhaps don't have to wait until crisis point to bring the question to themselves.

[00:38:29] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:30] Anne V Mühlethaler: But let me go back a tiny bit because I want to separate the two questions for a moment. Okay. When I hear what do I need, I don't have children, but I think of a toddler for some reason.

[00:38:44] Anne V Mühlethaler: I think it's the kind of question that's what I ask my friends when they're not, well, what do you need? Yeah. What can I do? Mm-hmm. And it strikes me that in my own life, I don't think I asked myself that until I was an, at an [00:39:00] absolute crisis point as well where I really, really did not like my life. What do you think makes us forget to ask ourselves this question that we are so eager

[00:39:15] Jessica Faith Graham: to ask others, particularly as women?

[00:39:22] Jessica Faith Graham: Gosh, what is it? I, I

[00:39:24] Speaker 2: think so many people wonder this. How do we get so far off track? Is it expectations? Is it getting on autopilot? Is it just day-to-day routines and all of a sudden we get so busy with it, we forget to bring in what we

[00:39:39] Jessica Faith Graham: need.

[00:39:43] Jessica Faith Graham: Life happens. Right. And I think,

[00:39:49] Jessica Faith Graham: I think it's so normal for so many of us, and like you said, it doesn't have to be this crisis moment for everyone. It can also be, I, you know, the month of [00:40:00] December is going by and I am so busy and I don't know what I'm doing. Like you said, we hope not everybody

[00:40:05] Jessica Faith Graham: gets to the crisis point, and yet we forget to ask ourselves,

[00:40:12] Jessica Faith Graham: what do I need and why? I, so isn't it, it's so unique to everyone. Why do we put the needs of others ahead of us? Why do we put at some point, I guess, career takes over for some people, and that might just really kind of take them in a way, or self care kind of falls to the

[00:40:29] Jessica Faith Graham: wayside.

[00:40:30] Jessica Faith Graham: I guess it goes back to

[00:40:33] Jessica Faith Graham: if we are suffering, we're believing something untrue. So are we believing that we have to be doing this, you know, that we can't give ourselves what we need, maybe. Mm-hmm. Or maybe question that. Is what's coming to my mind.

[00:40:48] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm.

[00:40:48] Speaker 2: And it is funny too, Anne, because when I really thought of the question, what do I need, it was my son, my youngest son was about probably two at the time.[00:41:00]

[00:41:00] Speaker 2: And so I really looked at asking that question in terms of exactly what you said, um, of taking care of a newborn baby.

[00:41:08] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm-hmm. Of

[00:41:09] Jessica Faith Graham: how we anticipate what they need. And you know, you really, as a mom, I know you just can read their cues and, and I remember thinking like, where am I kind of in this and how can I ask myself these real basic questions?

[00:41:27] Anne V Mühlethaler: It, it's fascinating because that means that you're literally saw yourself caring for someone else and, and saw that sort of mirror action and went, oh, how am I not doing that for myself? It is true because if we do not ask ourselves that, it's not something we necessarily ask each other as adults.

[00:41:50] Anne V Mühlethaler: Right. Unless someone is in crisis. If I see someone down the street that's fallen down, I'm gonna say, I'm so sorry. Can I help you? What do you need? But otherwise this it, it does not [00:42:00] exist in, in conversation. So coming back to what you said and that great quote from one of our mentors who she remain nameless until we can tribute that quote.

[00:42:11] Anne V Mühlethaler: I know. I'm so sorry.

[00:42:16] Anne V Mühlethaler: I wonder if it's also because at some point we internalize the idea that we shouldn't

[00:42:24] Jessica Faith Graham: have needs. I think

[00:42:26] Jessica Faith Graham: you're right. I think put others before ourselves, right? Take care of others, be kind to others. Yeah those stories that we tell ourselves, the, I should do this or I need to be kind and caring to others. These are stories, these are things that are not necessarily true. And we need to come back to ourselves, make sure we're taking loving care of ourself, which is the whole reason as you know, why I wrote my children's book. Yes. And the Buddhist philosophy from Thich Naht Hanh [00:43:00] all the reading that I did years ago.

[00:43:02] Jessica Faith Graham: But again, this is not, I think I, I don't think

[00:43:06] Jessica Faith Graham: it's commonly taught. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:43:13] Anne V Mühlethaler: We, what was striking about our connecting after finishing our mindfulness mentorship course with Banyan is that we had that connection to that same book. Yeah. Teachings on Love by Thich Naht Hanh. Both of our copies are dogeared and covered in notes and with Post-its coming out of it, which is, it's a pretty great connect.

[00:43:39] Anne V Mühlethaler: I mean, it's, it's, it's a beautiful book. I'm sure there's plenty of copies that have been sold, and it strikes me that both of us have found ourselves reconnecting

[00:43:50] Anne V Mühlethaler: to what does it look like

[00:43:56] Anne V Mühlethaler: to love, to love [00:44:00] ourselves, and to love others. It's interesting 'cause you started by introducing yourself. Through your relationships and,

[00:44:12] Anne V Mühlethaler: there's

[00:44:12] Anne V Mühlethaler: something to be said about learning to be both kind and caring to ourselves and to others, right? This, this, being able to hold it both at the same time, always. And it feels like that's the struggle in life. Sorry, I'm just doing something funky with my hands, which somehow is, I keep doing it too.

[00:44:33] Anne V Mühlethaler: Somehow, somehow is doing it for me. It's, and I've had this conversation with other people, other clients and, and, and others on the podcast, this holding the duality. Not letting one of them drop for the other. Right. And always remembering, I think some people don't like to use the word balance 'cause they think it's too idealistic.

[00:44:58] Anne V Mühlethaler: Perhaps the real [00:45:00] balance that I find interesting is not work life, but more self other love and care ourselves self other and just, and just keeping that in balance so that we never let ourselves down. 'cause, 'cause when I've let myself down, it wasn't because I had three kids, but I had a whole other series of shoulds including, right.

[00:45:24] Anne V Mühlethaler: You should be so grateful. You should be so grateful. You've got a great job, you've got a great situation. Many people don't have what you have. And it's not because they don't have what I have that I love what I have. All of these stories I was telling myself, were plastering over a feeling.

[00:45:42] Anne V Mühlethaler: And I think what you and I both share is that connection to having felt deeply that something needed to change and found Thich Naht Hahn to help us. Mm-hmm. At a, at a moment of, [00:46:00] in a moment of need.

[00:46:03] Jessica Faith Graham: I 100% agree. And just as you were saying, needed to allow, or that you said about change, I just wrote down allow to change.

[00:46:11] Jessica Faith Graham: 'cause that was exactly for me. I think even like you said, if, if it's not a crisis moment and life is still going great, but people are just feeling like there's something missing or they're just not feeling that passion or joy in their lives. Mm. But they have everything. Right. So many people say, well, I, I have so much to be grateful for.

[00:46:29] Jessica Faith Graham: Of course. But if you're not feeling that great passion and joy and desire in life. Allow that little bit of yourself to change, right? Mm-hmm. You have to allow it. You have to make, like you said before about making space, you have to allow that space to change.

[00:46:48] Anne V Mühlethaler: But I guess this is where your question comes into full force, because I think for most of us, and least for me, I did not ask myself, what do I need?[00:47:00]

[00:47:00] Anne V Mühlethaler: Until I was miserable and I desperately needed a change to happen, and finally I asked myself, what is it that I desire? What is it that I need? So I think some of us can be scared of asking ourselves the questions. I think frankly, I was really scared of asking myself the question

[00:47:25] Jessica Faith Graham: I like. You also got to a place where it was a really.

[00:47:30] Jessica Faith Graham: Dire moment of needing to make that change too. I know I always say about myself. I've had to really learn some hard lessons, like by just going through them. And that's kind of how I've done a lot in my life.

[00:47:42] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. I'm, I keep on thinking about what it's like to not be aware, not to, that you can, regardless of the situation, you can ask yourself the question, what do I need? I think for me, I was scared because once you know what you need, [00:48:00] once you see once, once you get clear about what's important to you.

[00:48:07] Anne V Mühlethaler: Essential even, right? You can't unknow it. No, you can't. And if you don't start giving yourself what you need, then you become even more uncomfortable because you're not honoring your own needs. And I think some people listening me recognize themselves in that. And I know that I was taught by, Martha Beck, for example, who talks a lot about alignment and aligning with ourselves.

[00:48:36] Anne V Mühlethaler: She talks about being in integrity the same way a plane is in integrity, and all of the parts are functioning. You know, there's not one thing missing that makes the plane,

[00:48:48] Anne V Mühlethaler: you know, fall apart. When you think about the question, who am I?

[00:48:54] Anne V Mühlethaler: How do you imagine people [00:49:00] examine this for themselves?

[00:49:05] Jessica Faith Graham: Well, that's a good question. And so I told you another word right at the beginning. I used to describe myself, is optimistic, right?

[00:49:12] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm.

[00:49:13] Jessica Faith Graham: And so for me, if I'm gonna sit down, even in that time of who am I, I could have written to where I guess you start with where you're at and then where you wanna be too, right?

[00:49:26] Jessica Faith Graham: Mm-hmm. Who am I? But it is just, you asked me to do it just today to to describe it to, you know, we often wanna start with, like I said, our careers or who we are. But I think if we keep asking that question again and again and again, kind of like what you've made me do with values before. Well, ask it again now, ask it again, and you're going to keep coming up with more about what drives you, what makes you [00:50:00] happy, what you know, what are the things that are important to you.

[00:50:04] Jessica Faith Graham: You can ask that question a million different ways, but if you really need to figure out what's making you find that, that that drive in your life or that passion or that's gonna take you out of autopilot or get, you know, save you from that being lost. Yeah, we have those answers, but sometimes we just really have to keep asking it or have somebody that, that can keep asking it for us, you know?

[00:50:28] Anne V Mühlethaler: Yeah. I love the analogy of drive versus autopilot. Suddenly that works for me. You're making me think about those self-driving taxis that they have in San Francisco and, and this, you know, being in control and driving your own or. You know, having something fly for you that suddenly feels very evocative to me.

[00:50:52] Anne V Mühlethaler: Huh. I was wondering, have you seen the Pixar Film Soul? [00:51:00] No, you haven't. So it sounds like it's for kids, but I promise you this is really much more for grownups than it is for kids, first of all. 'cause it's the story of a, a couple of souls.

[00:51:11] Anne V Mühlethaler: So, you know, and okay, if you haven't seen it, then I'm, I'm giving part of the plot away, but it doesn't take away from the meaning and the beauty of the, the film. There's a moment where a little soul called 22, played by Tina Fey, by the way. It's fantastic.

[00:51:35] Anne V Mühlethaler: She hears from her mentor who's a jazz player, he's in a, in a coma. He keeps on telling her that she needs to find her purpose, that without her purpose, she can't come to life, she can't come to earth. And then she starts telling herself the story that she has no purpose and she has no passion, and she's basically that she's no good.

[00:51:55] Anne V Mühlethaler: They create this incredibly moving and dramatic backdrop [00:52:00] to show what being stuck in that self, that negative self story and how it builds up an armor and it transforms her into a thing in a sort of a weird no man's land where she's incredibly aggressive and and impossible to reach. And it's such a sweet film because then it shows how the jazz player had not gotten what the whole point of life was in the first place.

[00:52:30] Anne V Mühlethaler: 'cause it wasn't about pursuing a passion or just a purpose. It was about the spark of joy that we can feel at any of the small joys of life. And that actually the little soul was absolutely ready. And she had actually already found her spark. But in telling herself the story of I have no purpose, I have no passion, I have no purpose, I have no passion.

[00:52:52] Anne V Mühlethaler: She kind of wrapped herself into a ball of unreachable negativity. [00:53:00] I don't know. Anyways, sometimes the words we use can put distance with what is going to work for us. I think what I love from your question, which I feel like I should probably ask myself every day now. Who am I and what do I need? Is, is this daily coming back to the moment?

[00:53:23] Anne V Mühlethaler: Not an ideal, not something pure, crazy out there. Just something in the in the moment. Who am I? What do I need? Kind of like you are talking about a baby. You don't just set the tone for how you're gonna look after the baby for six months. You have to moment by moment look at this little bundle and say, okay, what do you need?

[00:53:45] Anne V Mühlethaler: You were saying you were reading the cues. Yeah. I think you told me you were reading your cues when you were working through this 100. So of moment by moment trying to figure out shit, what do I need?

[00:53:58] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah. I was not, at [00:54:00] that time, I was not what's my passion and purpose in life? No, no. This was kind of in that moment things just didn't feel good anymore.

[00:54:09] Jessica Faith Graham: So yeah, it was just that basic question, what do I need? And like I said, they were so simple at the time. But the more just kind of care and love that I put into myself, it, it was like it created that space to, to find more passion and or purpose or joy or, and, but I also think you're so right, about the mindfulness of the moment, present moment, and, just the importance of that, how important that is on a day-to-day basis.

[00:54:45] Jessica Faith Graham: If we can touch on, you know, what, where we're at on that day.

[00:54:50] Anne V Mühlethaler: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:54:55] Anne V Mühlethaler: I wonder, I'll ask you one more question before we start to wrap up. [00:55:00] Mm-hmm. I wonder, what do you think is the relationship between those two questions and your creative life?

[00:55:09] Jessica Faith Graham: I think for me it gave, first of all, it set the tone for living in a way where I was really pouring love into myself, taking care of myself, and then it just made my whole living, you know, environment better, the kids flourished more. Everything was going well with that. The more kind of love that I poured into myself, took care of myself, well, then that gave me more energy and space to start to do these creative things. I wasn't in the state of just trying to get by. I had then space to create and that's when writing started to come to me. Like I said. Yeah. There, it just, it was like it [00:56:00] opened doors

[00:56:02] Jessica Faith Graham: in the most amazing way.

[00:56:06] Anne V Mühlethaler: Oh, I love that.

[00:56:12] Anne V Mühlethaler: It's so funny 'cause you're making me think about

[00:56:14] Anne V Mühlethaler: how I keep on wanting to bring more people to come and meditate with me. And I know it's really hard to find time, but I've been building this new analogy, this metaphor for what Le Trente is, what this social learning studio, this social club stands for. And I keep on thinking about a facade with lots of different doors and windows of different shapes and that each person can like open a bit peek in, say, is this for me?

[00:56:46] Anne V Mühlethaler: But I like what you said. I think the practice in itself brings an opening, an ushering into a different space. So it's like [00:57:00] you peek in, you go in, you have a look, you experience, and this opens a furthers door. And then another door. And then another door.

[00:57:08] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah. Isn't that how life works? Yeah. I think we don't always know, you know, in 2020, if you had told me this is where I'd be in 2025, I would not, this, this isn't where I would have imagined, I wouldn't have been able to set these, this life or these goals.

[00:57:28] Jessica Faith Graham: But by trusting myself enough to keep moving forward and setting more goals and opening more like opening these doors. Hmm. And what I really like about your idea of all the different doors and windows is that it's, it's different for each of us, right? Each one has a different shape, size, all of it, no one can tell you.

[00:57:52] Jessica Faith Graham: And what comes after that is different for everyone too. It's just, like I said, going back to being brave and courageous to do it [00:58:00] and just really listening to ourselves, the who am I being authentic to where we're, where we are at this time. 'cause I think that's the other thing is we always change. So just when we think we have it figured out, something new comes into it.

[00:58:19] Anne V Mühlethaler: That feels so true, so, so true. And not the easiest thing to swallow as, as in terms of, you know, what kind of truth I love.

[00:58:30] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah, I know. I feel like I probably shouldn't have said that one.

[00:58:34] Anne V Mühlethaler: No, no, no. You're so right. You're so right now, as we wrap up the conversation. I'd love to hear perhaps what's one thing that surprised you in our discussion, or what's one thing you, you would like our listeners to take away from what we've talked about?[00:59:00]

[00:59:01] Jessica Faith Graham: I think what's surprised me a bit is it's not a clear,

[00:59:11] Speaker 2: I can't just say, here's the steps in order to do this. You know, this is how you do it. Mm-hmm. I can, we all, I think it's a learned, it's, it's what life is. We're learning, we're growing, giving ourself just that compassion to do it and to be who we are.

[00:59:32] Speaker 2: I, I would love to say it's not, you know, it's a perfectly straight line. It's just, it's not easy. I guess that's, that's what I'm taking from our conversation. Yeah. Figuring it's not easy. Um, and something to leave us with. One of the things that I kept thinking about, and I wrote down here on my little sticky note was something that I was actually just talking with my children about in the car as we were [01:00:00] driving home.

[01:00:01] Speaker 2: Um, whereas I was driving them home from school and I was saying to my two younger ones that they've been born with gifts and they'll figure them out as life goes on. And my youngest said, well, I know my gift is, my eyes are hazel, but sometimes they turn blue. That's a gift. Yeah, yeah. Right. You know, and I thought, well, it's, it's gonna get even better than that, you know, thinking in my head, but I just thought, yep.

[01:00:30] Speaker 2: And you're gonna keep finding out more and more and more as you go. Like that's just kind of what a gift is. Right. An unexpected little surprise that we keep finding out about ourselves.

[01:00:41] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's lovely. He has hazel eyes that turn blue.

[01:00:46] Jessica Faith Graham: They're hazel, but they can kind of go gray now, I guess. They used to be blue of course.

[01:00:50] Jessica Faith Graham: Yeah. When he was born. So I would say more gray, but he likes to say blue. Mm-hmm. Dad has blue eyes. I have hazel eyes, so I think it works for him to go in between. [01:01:00]

[01:01:01] Anne V Mühlethaler: That's gorgeous. That's so sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Jessica, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today and for exploring these questions.

[01:01:11] Anne V Mühlethaler: I know that it's, you know, it's tender and it's honest and it's part of your story, and I I so appreciate being able to Yeah. To, to go round right, these different questions together. How can people connect with you if they want to follow you, perhaps engage with you on social media or somewhere else?

[01:01:32] Anne V Mühlethaler: Where can they find out more?

[01:01:35] Jessica Faith Graham: So I've got, Instagram with my name Jessica Faith Graham website of the same name, Jessica Faith Graham. My book. Lovely. The Love Inside is also available online and you can find that on my website too. So,

[01:01:48] Anne V Mühlethaler: yeah.

[01:01:49] Anne V Mühlethaler: Awesome. Thank you so much. I wish you a wonderful rest of the day and Thank you. I'm looking forward to catching up with you again very soon.

[01:01:59] Jessica Faith Graham: You too. [01:02:00] Thank you.

[01:02:01]